About bees…
by CJ | Sep 30, 2016 | Journal | 31 comments
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😉
I’d be a lot more surprised if we hadn’t had a hive in the backyard, and had bees take exception, as my father put it, and chase us into the house. It wasn’t usual – fortunately – but sometimes, yes, they seem to have woken up on the wrong side of the frame. (Plus there’s the do-not-wear-around-bees list: wool, leather, and dark clothing all get you tagged as Unfriendly Large Critter, and perfume, especially the more floral kind, gets Too Much Interest from them.)
So can this lovely lavender and buffalo tallow hand-cream, which got me stung lately—here I am with a very energetic hose set on stun in one hand, and a large mucky pond filter in the other, and this importunate bee got waved off several times with one object and the other and finally met my hand and let me have it. I think it had believed I was a lavender flower and concluded I was a buffalo.
I hybridize and raise rhododendrons. Somebody imported something from down south infested with lace bug (not carnivorous lace wing), Stephanitis pyrioides. It’s a foreign invasive, no local natural predators.
I researched all the control methods! Some ways work, some don’t, some sort of.
Our best option is neonics. CALM DOWN! Rhodies are “spring bloomers”! We spray in the fall (now’s good), kill the generation that’d lay over-wintering eggs. No eggs, no bugs next spring, no reason to spray again during flowering. Bees are safe, when we use neonics properly. It works best that way! Excessive spraying wastes money, not good for bees.
But my research showed bees get a buzz from neonics at normal application rates–like wearing an itsy bitsy nicotine patch.
The situation with the bees is complicated! Just remember what Mencken said.
Sources where they state bees get a “buzz” from neonics? Regardless of when you spray, if the bees are out foraging, they still ingest them, it causes them to forget where home is at, and they end up dying in the field. Since neonicitinoids are systemic and are absorbed into the plant, how long do they stay inside the roots of the plant and travel through the xylem as sap? If it stays within the plant through the spring, then you’re still exposing the bees to them.
I’m sure you’ve got credible sources, but from the entomologists that I’ve read and questioned, they believe the use of the neonics is STILL a problem. So, it’s now the plant breeders who want them and the beekeepers who don’t.
You might feel they’re safe, but tell me then, why were they banned in Europe? I doubt that it’s a reactionary move against Bayer or Monsanto, but that they believe these chemicals to be worse than the problems they’re supposed to solve.
You say you use them properly, and if so, good on you. But you are only one person, and most people consider that if 1 tsp in a gallon of water is good, then 2 tsps or 3 tsps in a gallon must be twice or three times as good. THAT is the problem with a lot of chemicals people put on their lawns and gardens.
I have replied, but the spam eater took it. I have asked CJ to release it. (I took the precaution of saving it offline.)
Alas, Paul, it seems not even to have made it into the filter. Try again!
@Joe, This is one of those subjects which emotion rules Science. (Of anything! To wit…) Its solutions are complex, and if it’s necessary to quote Mencken: “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” We want there to be simple solutions to our problems–just listen to the media this month for ample evidence. 😉 (Fortunately, that will all be over soon enough, or not
too soon, depending on one’s POV.)
Nicotine is a nerve stimulant. References: Bees prefer foods containing neonicotinoid pesticides. Published in the prestigious Nature – the International Journal of Science. Authors from Newcastle University, Trinity College Dublin, Oxford University. “The authors declare no competing financial interests.”
Yes, the advantage of neonics, over the acephate (easily more generally toxic than neonics, to me too) I used to us is they are translocated through the plant, most of which is leaf and exactly where we want it to kill lace bug. Rhodendrons are not flowering at this time of year. Leaf-cutter bees? They could be at risk, but that’s not what we’re talking about, is it?
It is wrong to compare the use of neonics in modern agriculture to imaginary pristine methods of centuries or millenia ago. Pesticides were in use before neonics, e.g. DDT, organo-phosphates. Comparison studies show neonics are safer to use than what was used before, represent a net advantage to reducing the toxicity introduced to nature.
The idea that once applied they’ve an extended life is an emotional fear that is not supported by the evidence. I have personally
experienced lots of evidence, and research has shown, that it does
not last through the winter to next spring’s blooming. We’re not talking either heavy metals or unnatural synthetic substances, e.g. teflon, PETE plastics, that persist in the environment. (There is little argument that nature, e.g. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch, q.v., would be much better off if we banned those products too, but we don’t.) Neonics are, by definition, biomimics that are metabolized, i.e. used up. They will be broken up by UV in sunlight.
Spray? I don’t recommend spraying when I’m working for our ARS Chapter at “home and garden” shows! I always recommend using the impregnated clay granules one waters in at the base of the individual plant. You’re right, spraying is hard to control, not what one wants in mixed beds
with ever-blooming plants, and exposes the sprayer as well.
I will not argue that they are never misapplied. We’ve seen that locally! That is a perennial problem, and not only with pesticides. Need I mention guns? We do not ban guns. British cops don’t carry guns as a rule, and there’s less lawlessness there than here.
Why has the Eurozone banned neonics? In my view, emotion. Look at their reaction to GMO’s. I think they decided implication was enough of a justification, and it was something they could do, so they did it. It made them feel good, but has it eliminated CCD in Europe?
I think you probably can agree with my view. The causes of CCD
and pollinators in general are complex and hard to solve. In some rough order of severity they are: varoa mites, habitat destruction, invertebrate iridescent virus type 6 (IIV-6), Nosema ceranae, Isreali Accute Paralysis Virus, q.v., trucking hives all over hell and gone spreading pathogens and stressing the hives, and all forms of pesticide use. We’re not going to solve the problem picking on the least of these because it’s simplest–you really DON’T want to see agriculture without pesticide use. We need to solve ALL of them top to bottom.
Please Mr SpamEater, don’t eat this post! I limited myself to only
one external reference, leaving Joe to find the other two on his own.
Please?
Still no go. May I try a PM, and you post it?
I just got an idea maybe it was too long, so I cut it into two. Still no go.
I found these in Science News:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/bees-may-neonicotinoids-some-may-be-harmed
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-ticker/neonicotinoids-are-partial-contraceptives-male-honeybees
A buffalo tiptoeing through the lavender, perhaps?
One can forgive the bee somewhat for confusing a writerly human lady with a much differently shaped American buffalo or perhaps a water buffalo from Asia or Africa, as sure they bee wouldn’t know any of the three, or even that they’re all mammals. One can similarly forgive the bee for liking lavender, an agreeable fragrance for this human male too.
If the confused and importunate bee were a fan seeking an autograph and offering her own stylus, well, really, she should have had better manners….
One could believe bees could have some sort of emtoions, but one does not wish to contemplate too much whether household insect pests have emotions, as one generally wants rid of the latter, or at least wants them elsewhere than in one’s home. (One prefers live and let live: Let them live elsewhere, please. But one also has no quarrel with beneficial insects.)
Whatever emotions bees or other insects have surely must be radically different than our own. Or are they? I suppose we’ll never quite know.
Closer in species, my cats surely do have an emotional life and it is similar, sometimes congruent, but usually somewhat qualitatively different than a humans’. It’s interesting that as “alien” as we are to each other, we still can both (species-wise) bridge that gap to understand each other, more oe less, much of the time, and work on the times when we don’t. I like trying to figure them out and enjoy their “cat-nesss,” and they seem to like figuring the human out. (And occasionally double-teaming the human to get him to do what they want, ahah.)
By comparison, a dog is very doggy but has his or her own set of emotions and an interface to understand the humans in the household.
Dolphins and porpoises and whales are similar enough to us to have observable behaviors much like their land cousins. Or like us.It makes you wonder what aliens would be like, how similar and how different.
Emotional bees. The ambiguous blossom. Somehow, that sounds like the start of a haiku….
@Joe, (Part 1) This is one of those subjects which emotion rules Science. (Of course, as an Aspie, I tend not to get emotionally entangled in anything! To wit…) Its solutions are complex, and if it’s necessary to quote Mencken: “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” We want there to be simple solutions to our problems–just listen to the media this month for ample evidence. 😉 (Fortunately, that will all be over soon enough, or not too soon, depending on one’s POV.)
Nicotine is a nerve stimulant. References: Bees
prefer foods containing neonicotinoid pesticides. Published in the prestigious Nature – the International Journal of Science.
Authors from Newcastle University, Trinity College Dublin, Oxford University. “The authors declare no competing financial interests.”
Yes, the advantage of neonics, over the acephate (easily more generally toxic than neonics, to me too) I used to us is they are translocated through the plant, most of which is leaf and exactly where we want it to kill lace bug. Rhodendrons are not flowering at this time of year. Leaf-cutter bees? They could be at risk, but that’s not what we’re talking about, is it?
It is wrong to compare the use of neonics in modern agriculture to imaginary pristine methods of centuries or millenia ago. Pesticides were in use before neonics, e.g. DDT, organo-phosphates. Comparison studies show neonics are safer to use than what was used before, represent a net advantage to reducing the toxicity introduced to nature.
And of course, as any beekeeper can tell you, hives have their own personalities too. Some are much calmer and gentler than others, though this varies with weather, food supply and other stressors like robbing by other hives. Humans have been breeding bees for temperment for several hundred years, but also for hardiness and honey production which are not always compatible.
Also on the list of things that will rile bees: stale sweat and beer. Since the easiest time to go through a hive is on a nice, hot afternoon, wise beekeepers wear clean coveralls and wait to have a cold one until after the work is done. Calm, smooth motions, and staying out of the flight path into the hive helps a lot too. (Any dog of my acquaintance got stung because it developed the habit of eating bees, or curiously stuck its nose right in the hive entrance)
I think this is the thing Paul was trying to post. I hope so.
@Joe, This is one of those subjects which emotion rules Science. (Of
course, as an Aspie, I tend not to get emotionally entangled in
anything! To wit…) Its solutions are complex, and if it’s necessary
to quote Mencken: “For every complex problem there is an answer that
is clear, simple, and wrong.” We want there to be simple
solutions to our problems–just listen to the media this month for ample
evidence. 😉 (Fortunately, that will all be over soon enough, or not
too soon, depending on one’s POV.)
Nicotine is a nerve stimulant. References: Bees
prefer foods containing neonicotinoid pesticides. Published in the
prestigious Nature – the International Journal of Science.
Authors from Newcastle University, Trinity College Dublin, Oxford
University. “The authors declare no competing financial interests.”
Yes, the advantage of neonics, over the acephate (easily more generally
toxic than neonics, to me too) I used to us is they are translocated
through the plant, most of which is leaf and exactly where we want it to
kill lace bug. Rhodendrons are not flowering at this time of
year. Leaf-cutter bees? They could be at risk, but that’s not what
we’re talking about, is it?
It is wrong to compare the use of neonics in modern agriculture to
imaginary pristine methods of centuries or millenia ago. Pesticides
were in use before neonics, e.g. DDT, organo-phosphates. Comparison
studies show neonics are safer to use than what was used before,
represent a net advantage to reducing the toxicity introduced to nature.
The idea that once applied they’ve an extended life is an emotional
fear that is not supported by the evidence. I have personally
experienced lots of evidence, and research has shown, that it does
not last through the winter to next spring’s blooming. We’re
not talking either heavy metals or unnatural synthetic
substances, e.g. teflon, PETE plastics, that persist in the environment.
(There is little argument that nature, e.g. The Great Pacific Garbage
Patch, q.v., would be much better off if we banned those products too,
but we don’t.) Neonics are, by definition, biomimics that are
metabolized, i.e. used up. They will be broken up by UV in sunlight.
Spray? I don’t recommend spraying when I’m working for our ARS Chapter
at “home and garden” shows! I always recommend using the impregnated
clay granules one waters in at the base of the individual plant. You’re
right, spraying is hard to control, not what one wants in mixed beds
with ever-blooming plants, and exposes the sprayer as well.
I will not argue that they are never misapplied. We’ve seen that
locally! That is a perennial problem, and not only with pesticides.
Need I mention guns? We do not ban guns. British cops don’t carry guns
as a rule, and there’s less lawlessness there than here.
Why has the Eurozone banned neonics? In my view, emotion. Look
at their reaction to GMO’s. I think they decided implication was enough
of a justification, and it was something they could do, so they
did it. It made them feel good, but has it eliminated CCD in Europe?
I think you probably can agree with my view. The causes of CCD
and pollinators in general are complex and hard to solve. In some rough
order of severity they are: varoa mites, habitat destruction,
invertebrate iridescent virus type 6 (IIV-6), Nosema ceranae, Isreali
Accute Paralysis Virus, q.v., trucking hives all over hell and gone
spreading pathogens and stressing the hives, and all forms of pesticide
use. We’re not going to solve the problem picking on the least of these
because it’s simplest–you really DON’T want to see agriculture without
pesticide use. We need to solve ALL of them top to bottom.
Please Mr SpamEater, don’t eat this post! I limited myself to only
one external reference, leaving Joe to find the other two on his own.
Please?
YAY!!! That’s it! Thank you, CJ! I ask now if anyone has any ideas WHY it wouldn’t even get to the spam filter? What are the rules we should follow to avoid troubled postings to WP? Too long? Too many links? Wrong phase of the moon? I’d rather not interrupt CJ’s writing with PM’s.
Hi, Paul (and CJ) – Very interesting information, thanks! Judicious and careful use of pesticides can make a huge difference in the health of the plant and overall crop yield, and still not harm beneficial insects.
Concerns about GMO products are sometimes overwrought, too, I think. Selective breeding is a form of modifying the genetics of an animal (as an extreme example, the Chihuahua descends from the wolf, but no one would mistake the two). Altering rice by manipulating its genome in the lab so that the rice will synthesize vitamin A (to help prevent blindness) doesn’t seem like a bad idea, either, as long as safeguards are in place so that the altered rice (and its different genetics) don’t leave the fields.
At our place, we really haven’t started to garden much at all, because the repairs on the house continue and we’re still reducing our black walnut population. I’m hoping to put more juglone-tolerant plants in the ground next spring, and will plant some native plant seeds over the next few weeks (mostly in the spots where we pulled a *lot* of garlic mustard and other invasives) in the hope that some will survive and flourish. Yes, I know that getting rid of the invasives is a life-long task, but we might as well start somewhere.
Next spring, I’d like to plant a *lot* of wild lupine and milkweed to help the Karner blue butterfly and monarchs, respectively (who needs a turf lawn, right?). We’re planning to mix perennials and annuals to provide good sources of nectar throughout the growing season, but achieving that goal will take years (only so much time, energy, and money available at any given point). This link navigates to a story about the Karner blue butterfly and wild lupine: https://www.fws.gov/midwest/Endangered/insects/kbb/lupine.html.
This year, the local bees enjoyed the flowering plants that we already have, and we hope to see more bees and nectar sources next year. The adage about perennials has been true in my experience: first, they sleep; second, they creep then, they leap. I guess dividing the perennial clumps is somewhere between 5 and 7 years, but that doesn’t fit nicely into the rhythm of the adage.
I have black walnuts too, near the house. I wish I didn’t!
If it were possible and affordable, I’d have them gone! For the next couple months they’ll be changing my trash pickups from monthly to weekly carting the fallen leaves and nuts away. They’ve significantly increased the size of my burn-pile with broken and fallen branches. For the last month, and many to come, the “bushy-tailed tree rats” have been and will continue to plant nuts all over, digging out, tossing aside my plants. I have this year’s cuttings caged! Not to keep them from running away, but to protect them from squirrels digging them up!
Black walnuts are tasty, and black walnut wood is a lovely hardwood. Why not see if you can find a local arborist or woodworker who might be willing to take down the walnuts pro bono in exchange for the wood itself? You could also open your yard to anyone who wants to come by and pick up the fallen nuts (who doesn’t have a bushy tail, that is).
Black walnut ice cream is one of my favorites—not that I’m much for ice cream. But I do like that flavor combo.
Black walnut trees don’t play nice with other plants. From what I’ve read, they exude a toxin that prevents other plants from growing around the tree. Even so, yes, the nuts are tasty.
They’re just not a tree one wants to live around! (Like “Sweet Gum/Liquidambar”!) Ine might be talked into it once, but not twice.
My contention, though, is that the neonics tend to affect the short-term memories of the forager bees – the oldest bees in the hive (save the queen). They can’t remember how to get back home and literally fly themselves to exhaustion and end up as spider, ant, or bird food. They usually do, anyway, but the short-term memory loss hastens the process, as the forager might be a relatively young forager. Some 1,500 workers die every day in the hive, but with the introduction of a memory-blocker, more bees forget how to get home and end up on some predator’s dinner plate.
Those green termite traps that certain companies put around the outside of houses? Imidacloprid, a neonicitinoid, which affects the memory of the forager termites, and they can’t remember how to get home. Bees aren’t attracted to those traps, so it’s not a problem, but people spraying or using systemic neonics DO present a problem.
His question about banning neonics in Europe not having reduced the incidence of CCD implies that CCD WAS caused by neonics. Neonics weren’t around in 1906 or so, and they had this same incidence of CCD then, they called it “disappearing syndrome”. What caused it? All of the things he mentions in the last paragraph are considered “markers”. In other words, they’re present in hives that have suffered CCD, but what isn’t necessarily obvious, is that those markers are also present in healthy, strong hives. Again, point to me the cause of CCD. The eminent entomologists with whom I’ve spoken can’t tell us, either. I’m not all that sure that the basis for banning neonics in Europe was emotional, that seems like his opinion, not necessarily fact.
Sorry, but the jury is still out on neonics for me. I won’t use them in my garden. I’ve been asked by the lawn service if they can treat my lawn and I tell them, no, there’s an active colony or several colonies of honey bees in the area and I don’t want them harmed because of my yard.
We may agree to disagree.
As I said, I have done my homework. I am “responsible” in my choices and uses.
I use imidacloprid in granules because it is the most effective against lacebug, and I can use it more safely to all concerned than the other insecticides. Because I am some distance from many other rhodendron or azalea plantings, I’m finding I only need to use it every second or third year, as I use it in the fall. More than necessary is expensive waste. Neonics are not cheap!
I’ve tried other systemics, e.g. acephate. They are less effective, more toxic, and require more frequent use–altogether more dangerous. Non-systemics, e.g. organophosphates, are even worse.
p.s. If your lawn–lawn, not flower beds–needs treatment, insist they spot-treat with granules. (And supervise them! Or do it yourself.) They are very controllable as spray is not.
I can live with agreeing to disagree..you’re looking at it from the point of view of a gardener/plant breeder. I’m looking at it from the point of view of an apiarist.
As I said before, YOU might be responsible in your use of neonicitinoids, that doesn’t follow that everyone else would also be responsible users. THERE is the major problem. My contention wasn’t aimed at you personally, and if you construed it that way, please be assured it wasn’t.
I didn’t think it was, and I don’t disparage the apiarist’s PoV, unless it drifts to a ban because some people could misuse the product. We don’t do that, e.g. guns. I particularly object to managing the natural world with laws. The Law is all about absolutes, “Thall shalt not…”. The natural world is all about exquisite balances. The two don’t mix.
However, I disagree that use or misuse of neonics is the major problem. I see three, one flat hard, one just unacceptable, and one in the middle. In order of criticality, the first is hive pestilence. The second is itinerant hives being stressed unnaturally and spreading pestilence and disease. And the third is habitat destruction for even “non-commercial” pollinators. That’s where we should be concentrating for “the best bang for the buck”.
Hive pestilences – hmmm…okay, varroa destructor came from Asia. The Asian honey bees, apis ceranae, have learned to cope with them to the point where the workers will actively attack any mite they find. How did the mite get here? Theories are that a ship brought them with a swarm of honey bees that had taken residence on the ship. My guess is that those were probably Italian honey bees, apis mellifera, which is the predominant species used by beekeepers. A. Mellifera never learned to cope with the mites, as they weren’t present in Europe. Tracheal mites are also from Asia, and might have been brought along with the same swarm that brought the varroa mite. Small hive beetles are from Africa, how did they get here? Possibly the same way as the varroa/tracheal, on a ship.
Africanized honey bees were an accident, and unfortunately, there’s nothing we can do to put that genie back in the bottle. The trait that makes AHB so defensive is a dominant trait, passed from mother to daughter, whether that daughter be a queen or a worker. (Even if a colony has no queen, workers will lay unfertilized eggs which become drones, further carrying the trait if they mate with a queen.)
I’ve read articles in the bee magazines about how breeders in the South would leave the mite strips on their hives all year long, giving the mites a chance to develop an immunity to the fluvalinate on the strips. So, along comes Cumaphos, which is an organophosphate toxin, suitable for use against the Small Hive Beetle (also from Africa). Now, not only the SHB, but also the varroa mites are immune against Cumaphos, again from overuse and overexposure. The current treatments are formic acid and oxalic acid, which are hard on the bees, as well. I’ve used formic acid one time in my colony, it was an “interesting” experience. The method of delivery has been improved so that the handler doesn’t need to wear all of the protective equipment such as a respirator and heavy gloves, but it’s still a hazardous material. The good thing about it is that it leaves no residue in the hive once it’s removed. You just can’t use the honey that’s in the hive when you treat. The bees can use it, but it’s not legal to sell for human consumption.
Now, I’ll agree with you that these pestilences are spread due to moving hives around. Perhaps if there were other crops in say, Northern California that would sustain colonies all year round, then colonies from outside California wouldn’t need to be trucked in to pollinate the almond crops. Almond growers strip off all of the vegetation around the groves and thereby eliminate a major source of nectar and pollen for the bees after the almonds blossoms have dropped. When California almond growers put out a call several years ago for hives because there were insufficient numbers of hives in California, should we have been upset that apiarists from outside California brought in thousands of hives to pollinate the crop? (maybe we should have been upset at the prices they charged for each hive’s services – upwards of $125 per hive) Washington apple growers, South Dakota sunflower growers (on my trips to Spokane, I passed lots of these huge sunflower fields, and noticed that near almost every one of them, were several apiaries), how about growers in Southern California’s Imperial Valley, or Idaho, or wherever pumpkins, watermelon, cucumbers, and other crops are grown? What plants are around to sustain honey bees throughout the rest of the season? A hive needs anywhere from 75 – 120 pounds of honey to last through a winter. Even if the beekeeper supplements that with sugar syrup, it’s not something the bees really like, and can contribute to health issues within the hive. Fondant (fancy cake frosting) works well, is less likely to contribute to excess moisture in the hive, but the bees have to be able to reach it, too. Placement is critical – a bee cannot move at 41 degrees F, and could starve even though the honey is less than an inch away from her.
Neonics aren’t the only “major” problem, as I said previously, it’s a marker, it’s present in hives that experienced CCD. Those hives back in 1906 that experienced CCD didn’t have neonics, varroa, IAPV, Deformed Wing Viruses, etc. The worst the beekeepers had to worry about was foulbrood or chalkbrood, and those were easy to treat or correct. It’s not easy being a beekeeper these days. You can do everything right, and still lose your colonies. A 50% loss over a winter is a significant loss, not just for commercial beekeepers, but also for the hobbyist.
Building up strong colonies requires the right queen and the right drones. Dr. Joe Latshaw, who works in Ohio, has developed an artificial insemination program where he’s bred drones for desirable traits (such as ability to cope with mites), and then inseminated queens that are also bred for desirable traits. He’s provided a lot of training to people who’ve been able to take his course. He’s not the only one, Sue Coby who used to be at The Ohio State University, and is now at UC Berkeley, developed a line of queens that are considered premium. I’ve had some of her stock and they are very good producers, and not really that expensive. A good queen will set you back about $25. Dr. Marla Spivak of the University of Minnesota has also been breeding a hygenic strain. No, they still don’t do windows, but they are mite-resistant.
Unfortunately, I’m not as up on the latest developments as I once was, since I’m not actively keeping bees these days. I could keep them in the city, but the problem is that there are too many children in the area and if one gets stung, I am liable. I can’t afford the apiary insurance for that eventuality. The best I can do nowadays is go to our local club’s meetings, which is a given, since I’m the Secretary/Treasurer…. 😉
See, it seems to me you’ve just ticked off the same list of problems I did. The one “real simple” thing we could do that would help cure a lot of ills is a “Mann Act” for bees. Prohibit hives from crossing state lines.
There are a few backyard apiarists here in Portland who are determined to develop a strain of their own that demonstrates superior survivability locally by good old selective breeding.
There’s also a local mycologist who thinks he’s found a fungus that controls the mites.
Globalization without proper controls is a major problem on so many fronts, not the least of which is effects of natural invasives. And there’s always someone who will argue forcefully ($) that they’re unnecessary.
I so appreciate a civilized argument even when it resolves to disagreement. You people are gems.
In my case, attribute it to Asperger’s. Where the subject is matters of fact, e.g. Science, my emotions don’t get drawn into it; I’m more “explainer”. Classic Aspie! 😉 Can I take credit for what I was born with?
Keep emotions out of it and it’s easier to keep a debate civilized, as we have so recently seen “unevidenced”. (Wha’d’ya think, similar?) 😉
When the argument is purely emotional, well, to me there is no such thing! Arguing, I mean. Emotions just are, there’s no arguing about them, they just are. As well get into an argument whether there should be gravity. Accept them, and if they’re a “problem”, accept whatever need there is for a “proper” resolution. The argument devolves into a definition of terms, still important, and “where’s the fun in that?”
@Joe, tying one more time…
https://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/features/3628
http://cmns.umd.edu/news-events/features/2877