I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
PS, I haven’t read most of the people you have mentioned. Did, however, just listen to Hyperion, my first Dan Simmons. It mostly left me cold and I thought the Shrike should atomize a couple of the characters. CJ is my main scifi person. I loved Dune as a teenager but reread it recently and didn’t like it nearly as much. A Wrinkle in Time is still a favorite. Am fond of Karin Lowachee but she hasn’t written much. Her Warchild trilogy is awesome. Also Gaslight Dogs, but that one begs a sequel. The Merro Tree by Katie Waitman is lovely, but hard to find. I read all the Foundation books as a teen and loved them. Don’t know how they’d hold up for me on a reread.
Sleo: yes, I get the same thing. I used to love Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke as a teenager, but recently reread some Heinleins and they did very little for me. In fact, I’ve given most of them away. I did reread most of my Nortons a couple of years ago, and enjoyed many of them (not all) as light and pleasant reads, with a few being really excellent. They are innocent little books that leave you with a good feeling. Dan Simmons writes very well and creates intelligent plots (though he rather overextended himself with Ilium and Olympos), but there is no warmth in his books. He is cold and scary – his earlier horror novels are also very well crafted, but rather unpleasant.
With regard to the pointed ears, didn’t Michael Whelan (or someone) say that CJ provided some basic sketches of the Atevi to Whelan before he commenced work on the cover for Foreigner? I like the pointed ears, and they seem appropriate for the Atevi.
If CJ is okay with pointed ears for the atevi. . . I really like Whelan’s covers for Foreigner and Invader; I especially love the detail of a lily-embossed but bullet-pocked wall behind Bren and Jago. Whelan’s atevi look like sculptures. Imposing; artistic, flowing lines; and beautiful.
I, too, got my sf start with Heinlein and Asimov, though Heinlein soured on me early and I greatly preferred Asimov’s science books to his fiction. My first reading of Clark’s City and the Stars made me realize at a young age that I have low-tech leanings: Lys sounded infinitely more appealing as a place to live than did Diaspar, despite the immortality of Diaspar’s inhabitants and the ease of their lives. Or maybe the place just made me claustrophobic.
Yarlan Zey is one of the best sf name ever.
Sleo (and any one else who may be interested), try The Witches of Karres by James Schmitz (yes, I remembered) if you can get your hands on it. It is light, quirky and inventive. Its vatches are one of my favorite non-human species.
I’m going to the bookstore today to see if Intruder is in! Wish me luck!
Most of Schmitz’s work is available from Baen. Witches isn’t available as a free eBook, but four of his others are. Try Agent of Vega or one of the Telzey books.
I love Whelan’s atevi also. He makes Jago beautiful. Thanks for the tip. I’ll look for it.
Baen has the ebook for $5. I bought it on your recommendation. 🙂
@Raesean Yes, I’m a Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland. If you wish I’d be happy to nominate you .. maybe you can afford the fee now? The yearly fee is a lot higher 60 quid I think … I’d have to check (I’ve set up a Direct Debit so whatever it is it just gets payed)… but (for those who don’t know) if elected the annual fee does include the annual Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland (non UK residents postage is required)and of course your entitled to append FSAScot. Past Proceedings are available on the ADS website at York Uni for free but you’ll have to register on their website.
@Sapphire That goes for you too .. if your interested?
Anybody else who is a member of WWAS and can demonstrate to me that your request to be nominated is valid i.e. you have a demonstrable antiquarian interest. I’d be happy to nominate you also. But don’t reply or post here I’ll ask CJ if she could set up a page on which you can post a comment if you interested in being nominated or arrange for some way that we can be put in direct contact. I’ll have to know who you really are and we’ll have to correspond. Two sponsors are required … is another WWAS also a Fellow? and willing to second my nomination? If not I should be able to organize that.
Those with an interest might also want to check the RCAHMS website (Royal Commission Ancient & Historic Monuments Scotland. The Canmore DB is also freely accessible but again you have to register.
@Bob: sorry for not replying to your offer of FSAScot nomination earlier. It was a hectically busy work week and then, well, Intruder arrived and I treated myself yesterday to a “downtime” day sogging on the sofa with my nose stuck in it! Quite pleasurably too except for the sore rump from too much sitting.
Yes, I would like to accept your offer of an FSAScot nomination (I can get my old Celtic professor in Edinburgh, Willy Gillies, to “second” me. I can’t imagine he is not an FSAScot). Let’s see how we can do it. High time I overcame my inherent cheapness (it’s always is more expensive that I would like, but I am considerably more flush than when a starving student living on $3000/year in the early ’80s and in a 20 pound a month coal-heated, no-shower, cold-water flat.) I should also see if I can get some of my Scots early modern fosterage research published in it. Their 16th-18th C. concept of a child being sent to a lesser-ranking household for fostering between (ideally) ages of 7-14 in order to promote familial ties is quite similar, actually, to the Atevi fosterage Cajieri experiences.
@Raesean
Just saw this …. I’ll email CJ and see how we can exchange our real world IDs and email addresses. I was a student in Edinburgh in the very early ’70s before absconding to become a FT musician. I’d a top-flat off/on the Royal Mile (The front door was on Jeffrey St, just round the corner from Knox’s place, but some windows looked onto the mile) Tenner a month & yes also coal-fire, no-shower (or bath), cold-water flat. Use to go to the swimming pool at …(I forget)… the upper level overlooking the pool consisted of bath units where for 1 shilling ( 5 new pence in decimal) you got the use of a bath. There was no set time limit and because the water was being heated for the swimming pool central heating – it was hot and you could use as much as you liked. I’d wash in one bath and then empty and refill for a long soak and when it got cold and there was no more room to top up I’d empty it and fill it again for another. The baths were still available in the mid eighties ’cause I went back for a nostalgic soak then .. got charged 50p that time.
If you haven’t seen it you might want to look at my post below about Bronze Age Celtic mummies found in the Taklamakan Desert. Stein’s Archaeological Expeditions at the beginning of the last century ‘first’ came across them. The Tocharian scripts closest relative appears to be old Scots Gaelic. And the textiles look like early tartan and very similar to textile artifacts found in the Hallstatt salt mines
@Raesean
CJ says: Just tell them e-mail me with the title “Please Forward TO Robert re FSAS nomination” and just put whatever they want in the body of the letter.
Just Put – name & email address – I’ll reply and we can take things from there.
I’ll indeed e-mail CJ as soon as I can find her e-mail address. I assume it is somewhere on this site.
I too lived on the Royal Mile at one point during the 80’s, but further up in the Lawnmarket (Milnes’ Court). The UK had just won the Falklands war and I got to hang out my window watching all the regiments march down from the castle for victory services at St. Giles Cathedral.
I’ll go take a poke at the Taklamakan Mummies. I haven’t looked much at Tocharian. John Koch, one of my old professors (when he was at Harvard) adores Celtic Linguistics but I can’t remember his comments on that language (other than, yes, it is Indo-European and really fascinating).
Were the bathes down near Pollack Halls…. the Commonwealth Pool? I have never swum (is that a properly spelt word?) there.
@Raesean
email: cj@cherryh.com
Wasn’t the commonwealth. Small pool C19 building. The baths for washing were in a line of rooms on the balcony over looking the pool.
Thank you very much, Bob. I will think about it, though my greatest interest (rather than profession) has always been in eastern Mediterranean archaeology (Bronze Age).
I now bid you farewell for a few days, since the long-awaited Intruders have arrived and I need to digest them.
My next message will consist entirely of xxxs, since one is not allowed to discuss the book until everyone has read it… 🙂
You don’t have to have a Scottish antiquarian interest although the Proceedings are almost entirely devoted to articles/reports on Scottish History or Archaeology … so the fee may not be value for money. My 3 yr Cert. Field Archaeology course was taught by Lionel Masters and he also gave adult education course in Minoan & Mycenaean archaeology which I took as extracurricular studies … similarly took Egyptology modules given by Dr Bill Manley (Honorary President of Egyptology Scotland)
Hope your Intruders taste good!
Intruder downloaded to my Kindle on Tuesday. I finished the first read today and started on the second. I am anxious for the time to come when it can be discussed at this site.
Decided to reread Conspirator, Deceiver, and Betrayer so that I’d be fully prepped for Intruder. With great restraint and much agonizing I have refrained from peeking until I complete that trio. Should start on Intruder shortly.
Bob – I did the same thing. It amazes me how well these books are reread.
I also think Destroyer & Pretender should be read as one.
i went to my library app on my iPhone (yes, they have an app for that!!) and founf they had just ordered the book, i put a hold on it and i was first!!! in twenty minutes there were about 27 other holds placed. After my first read through i though i would put down some notes. after reading through them i realized there might be a spoiler or two in them so i redacted a few words.
it opens with , Bren says , the doors opened , rain fell , Jago , and i can’t wait for the next one.
This book is a box of chocolate covered awesome, and i ate the whole box in one sitting. Thank you CJ, another well written saga of our intrepid hero navigating the shifting and dark associations of Atevi thinking. I am in awe of your literary skills and consistency to the minor details of Atevi life. I laugh out load at some passages and want to share this with friends and family but i realize to fully understand the meaning of the humor you instill on each page they would have to read all of the books to begin to comprehend the punchline. Well, i’m off to a reread, the book is due back in 3 days, i can get another two reads in i think! ; )
Finished Intruder. Will digest this and have a second helping next weekend.
Meanwhile I’ll return to reading through the Morrison Collection that was painstakingly amassed by George Ernest Morrison during his 20-year residency in Beijing and contains approximately 24,000 volumes in Western languages dealing with China and its neighbors and is housed at The Toyo Bunko (The Oriental Library). A library and research institute dedicated to the study of Asian history and culture. It is the largest Asian Studies Center in the region and one of the five largest in the world.
The Morrison Collection is being digitized by the National Institute of Informatics and The Toyo Bunko within a collaborative venture (The Digital Silk Road Project) and I’d recommend browsing through the other projects that can be accessed from the right sidebar.
The current list of The Digital Archive of Toyo Bunko Rare Books provides links to each digital resource and unless something particularly grasps your attention I would recommend starting with Marc Aurel Stein’s archaeological adventures in the Taklamakan desert and surrounding areas.
Those yet to discovered these resources might want to Google Celtic mummies of the Taklamakan desert.
🙂 Bob, sorry you’ve had such a time of it! The program is set to hold any post with multiple links for moderation, but I usually find and clear these every few hours.
I always say, our spam filters miss the spammers and tag our members with amazing accuracy.
‘s’OK can you delete all other of today’s except this and the one above …. thanks ..Bob
Or apply these fixes and then remove this comment
These are the URL fixes for the above
National Institute of Informatics
The Digital Silk Road Project
If the page turns up in Japanese script look around there will be a link labeled English (In ‘English’ txt so you shouldn’t miss it
Finished Betrayer. Will digest this and have a second helping next weekend.
Meanwhile I’ll return to reading through the Morrison Collection that was painstakingly amassed by George Ernest Morrison during his 20-year residency in Beijing and contains approximately 24,000 volumes in Western languages dealing with China and its neighbors and is housed at The Toyo Bunko (The Oriental Library). A library and research institute dedicated to the study of Asian history and culture. It is the largest Asian Studies Center in the region and one of the five largest in the world.
The Morrison Collection is being digitized by the National Institute of Informatics and The Toyo Bunko within a collaborative venture (The Digital Silk Road Project) and I’d recommend browsing through the other projects that can be accessed from the right sidebar.
Sorry URL fix
National Institute of Informatics
The Digital Silk Road Project
If the page turns up in Japanese script look around there will be a link labeled English
(In ‘English’ txt so you shouldn’t miss it
The current list of The Digital Archive of Toyo Bunko Rare Books provides links to each digital resource and unless something particularly grasps your attention I would recommend starting with Marc Aurel Stein’s archaeological adventures in the Taklamakan desert and surrounding areas.
Those yet to discovered these resources might want to Google “Celtic mummies of the Taklamakan desert”.
Without giving away the plot (as this one is apt to do), I would just like to say that I love Intruder. It’s a little different from previous volumes. It sort of takes a breather and takes stock, examining the reasons behind certain plot lines in previous titles, and giving the overall story more depth. I think Bren and his aishid needed to slow down and have a bit of a rest after all the frenetic activity.
For some reason, even though it is nearly 400 pages long, the book seems much shorter than that. I am on my second reading now. Thank you, CJ, for giving me so much pleasure.
The only downside for me is that one has to wait so long before the publication of the next book.
One thing: DAW really need to sort out their editing/proofreading. It really doesn’t do for a publisher of DAW’s stature not to employ people who can do a good editing job. I am aware that editing standards have slipped massively since I first worked in publishing, but there are still plenty of good, experienced editors about. (I’d even volunteer to read the typescript for free – the errors are easy to pick up.) This is not, of course, a criticism of CJ’s work. It is not an author’s job to edit her own text – authors are generally too close to their work to do this well.
Now I’ll shut up and say goodnight, all.
The Kindle version has some editing problems as well. I’ve noticed this is common for ebooks – not as much care is taken.
Wah! I finished it this afternoon and now I don’t have anything to look forward to! It was funny and tense and soooooooo good! When’s the next one coming out??? Nag, nag, nag. 🙂
Yes I’d like to read the next now as well!
I’m considering emailing DAW and Penguin distribution (CJ, who else in in the loop?) and suggest like Baen they issue an advance Readers Copy. If they are worried about loosing sales I’d be quite willing at the time of paying for the ARC to pay in advance for the Hard Back edition which might not be available till almost a year later. If enough people are willing to do that the HB printing costs might be covered by the advance sales. And with all those readers Sapphire’s point about the poor quality of editing/proofreading today is sort of taken care of – I’m sure ARC readers will point them all out before the title goes to print.
Yes, Bob – that would be a way to prevent errors of the type that persistently appear in these books (though at least ‘resistance’ has been spelled correctly in this one).
DAW probably shouldn’t send advance copies to more than a couple of readers who know the sequence really well (like us!). (If too many people were involved they could be driven crazy by unnecessary comments.) The errors are easy to pick up, as mentioned above. I would also be prepared to pay for a hardback copy in advance (and would respect confidentiality until a book’s publication).
It could be that the editors DAW employs change with every book. It’s important to use people who know the books in detail, and who are also able to pick up things such as repetitions of words, e.g. ‘and and’, and typos.
I love these books so much and don’t want the sequence to end, so it is in my interest as well as the publisher’s to achieve as many sales as possible to enable it to carry on. 🙂
I don’t think DAW should have to decide between paying readers who does or doesn’t get an advance copy … to much risk of lawsuits re’ discrimination.
The problem of unnecessary comments could be quite easily handled with a form that includes fields for the respondent to enter page/line/word number etc. Then only need a field to hold a duplicate count.
Identification of those breaching copyright could be done in a way similar to how the publishers of logarithms could identify their product – introduced ‘errors’ (that could be different for each purchaser).
Advance order pricing could also be higher by making the product a higher quality ‘collectors’ item e.g. a leather covered, numbered, edition. A cheaper hard back binding could be used for those books going out for retail distribution.
Bob: I don’t understand your first sentence. For myself, I would read these books for free before publication and pay for a copy of a hardback. For me the first-edition hardbacks are all collectors’ copies.
With regard to unnecessary comments, my point was that if DAW used too many readers for a book, it could be deluged with a mass of comments from the overly enthusiastic, which they would then have to take time to trawl through – or ignore because because of their content. In my experience, publishers these days have to produce books very quickly in order to make a profit. A lot of publishers have gone under in the U.K., most of all due to competition from electronic media, which encourages a very short attention span and thus a lack of ability to focus on books. This is coupled with a poor education in English literature and language. I’ve seen this happen first-hand, I’m afraid.
I’m sure DAW would not have the resources to institute complex systems involving forms and logarithms, etc. Only academic publishers like the university presses might contemplate such systems for definitive works that take many years to write, and perhaps also illustrate.
Sapphire: keeping it short. 1) just meant all willing to pay for the electronic ARC + hardback package should receive (better quality binding could help justify proportionately higher priced ARC+HB advance payment bundle) 2)Online form & server-side Db – easy design/programme/test (very-cheap) 3) tag each electronic copy individually – also very easy/cheap. e.g like automatic random insert full-stop different place each copy – identifies whose e-copy if reproduction proliferates (4) mechanically numbering during either printing/folding/collating/binding even hand numbering short runs – not expensive.
I bought both the hard-bound and Kindle versions. I read through the hard-bound book and now have been reading through the Kindle version while traveling. The errors in the hb show up in the Kindle… Conversion seems to be consistent.
I know nothing of the inner workings of the publishing industry but the number of errors whether typos, spelling or word repetition seems excessive, especially in light of the available computer programs for such things. I find them distracting. Still – I love this series and reread it like no other books.
dlynn: I agree a computer program should be able catch the errors you suggest. I reread almost all of CJs books at least once a year. Don’t do that for any other author.
dlynn/bob: a computer program (like Word) wouldn’t catch everything, by any means. Such programs tend to be rather dumb in my experience, although they are useful for basic checks. Word would, however, catch some things, like incorrect spellings of ‘resistance’.
As far as I know, neither Word nor any other computer program could catch errors in continuity/factual inconsistencies, which only a human can do (at present).
The errors don’t particularly bother me, since I understand how they must have happened and what goes on in publishing. They are by no means a reflection on the quality of CJ’s work. However, they have been commented on by a few reviewers (and not just in the case of this title), which distresses me on CJ’s behalf.
P.S. As a matter of interest, one reviewer has suggested that ‘a series of this length and complexity needs a separate continuity editor even if it is a first reader/high level fan. There is simply too much for a copy editor to keep track of’.
That would probably solve the problem with errors in continuity – you really need to know the sequence backwards and forwards in order to catch such errors…
I would agree with that Sapphire. At one point I feel sure that Tatiseigi was substituted for Tabini, an easy mistake I’m sure but one only obvious to someone who knows the series.
Then again, I may be talking through my hat and got it backwards myself.
There is one thing that made me do a double-take in this book (an ‘Eh?’ moment), but it isn’t that. 🙂
Sapphire: Agree continuity/factual inconsistencies wouldn’t be caught, neither would real words that are incorrect in context. But some simple checks and parsing the file against a dictionary should catch all other “typos, spelling or word repetition” – they just don’t seem to bother to run a final check before going to press. The reviewer is right in suggesting ‘a separate continuity editor is needed’ for long series. And should be a requisite in addition to editor, sub-editor/copy-editor and proof readers.
Don’t blame CJ at all, once you’ve drafted and re-drafted something a couple of times the eye tends to see what you think should be there and just passes over whatever disagrees. Needs fresh sets of eyes and particular mind sets to trap the variety of mistakes that result from that particular blindness. You need a few of them and each should only read once through. Otherwise they catch the problem that afflicts the author.
[FYI – some of my background … saves covering old ground: have also been roadie, musician, recording engineer and promoter – I have been programming code since an undergraduate in 1971, starting with ticker-tape and punch cards. Bulletin-boarded and got on the first Internet train. Recently refreshed with complete 1st & 2nd year computing modules and a post-grad MSc(Information Technology). Also was a publisher for a while in the 80s tried my hand at everything sold the advertising, wrote copy, edited & proof read, typeset (lead & Litho), scanned the prints or negs for colour seps & half tones, did the cut and paste to produce camera ready copy, made the plates, ran the presses, folding, collating, $ binding machinery and sold the product at the end. Not saying I was fast or good at it but I did it and I like to think I was at least marginally competent at some of it.]
Anybody like Bluegrass … Lester Rae Sears and Tennessee Border are playing at Courtney’s, restaurant and catering, Mt. Juliet, TN from 6pm-8pm. The gig is broadcast live on Ustream.tv the ‘station’ is courtneyslivemusic Link To webcam. Watched last week …. Picture quality was poor – as you’d expect – but sound quality was very good .. full and deep-bodied. The sound balance between instruments was excellent. The playing was great and nothing wrong with the vocals. I thoroughly enjoyed it last week staying up to watch all of it 12 midnight – 2am UK time. Check it out!
There is nothing like a good, old-fashioned copyediting job – I don’t like relying on computers when it comes to copyediting, though I sometimes do a quick spell check at the beginning of a job.
For myself, my profession has been in book publishing for many years. On the whole it is a very interesting profession – you are paid to read and learn in the process. It’s not nearly as good as it once was, when book publishing was king and had far more money than it does nowadays, but still far better than a lot of jobs I can think of. I certainly don’t have a talent for writing, though. My academic writing has been OK – I’m not bad at putting facts together following meticulous research in libraries and the like. My sisters can write creatively, and my sister-in-law is quite a highly regarded novelist in the U.K. (c. 15 books to date). Her type of literature is definitely not my style, and I have all the books she has given me put away in a big chest…
Now back to that second read of Intruder…
If you check the archive, you know that this volume had copyeditor problems not detected until the last moment…the editor and I had to go to a line-by-line comparison of my text versus the wholesale changes in meaning and direction and culture and just the story line wrought by a copyeditor in the galley-text, which is post-editorial and post writer consult and one jump from print. At this point the editor and I resolved to give priority to restoring the meaning. The lesser problems—we just had our hands full.
CJ: Gulp – sounds like a horrendous scenario! I didn’t realize that had happened. I will check the archive (if I can locate it) and find out about the problem.
Please don’t think I am criticizing your work on the book. It is superb and I cannot wait for the next one. I’m now on my second read of Intruder, and am seriously contemplating rereading the entire sequence (again).
Thank you so much.
CJ: I found the relevant passages in the archive. What on Earth was that copyeditor doing? If she wanted to make such major changes to your work, she should have contacted the publisher or you directly and obtained agreement to do so.
I haven’t worked on novels that much (mainly on factual books directly with authors), but I’ve known throughout my time in publishing that you should refrain from tampering with an author’s ‘voice’. This applies particularly to experienced authors writing literary fiction. Raise queries and make suggestions, yes (they are often taken in), but don’t alter the structure or meaning without full consultation.
Anyway, in general terms, the book makes complete sense and is an excellent read. Thank goodness you managed to salvage it.
I just finished my first reading, and loved it. I think this may become one of my favorite books for this series. I love the pacing, and the new developments, both in characters, relations and actions.
I won’t say anything spoilerish, just talk in generalities, but there was something that struck me in a very good, re-invigorating way. Just a few small notes, which sound completely plausible and at the same time utterly strange – and thereby re-instate the unpredictability of the future.
After the way I’d become familiar with the atevi, CJ manages with just a bit of numerical reasoning on Cajeiri’s and Tabini’s part to suddenly refresh the feeling that these are aliens, thinking in a very different way than a human would think about the same situations, even those who are not at all ‘superstitious’ about the numbers; and that therefore their actions might be quite unexpected – and if they act the same way a human might, that would not necessarily mean their reasons for doing so would be the same, nor would the results and consequences impact them (their planning and reasoning) in the same way.
Add to that the introduction of the new chaos-creating element, and the baji-naji approach to the universe is suddenly extremely applicable!
I love what that is going to do to some of the primary characters, and the unpredictability of the storyline.
I finished Intruder in what I’ll call pell-mell fashion–I couldn’t slow down because I just had to get to the next page and then to the next page. . . Now that I know how things turn out–so far–I can read it again and more slowly. What fun!
The politics of the atevi world are so twisty.
RE the copyedit thing—I’ve had copyeditors go along fine for years—then apparently have a personal meltdown in which they run as berserk as weasels in a henhouse, moving blocks of text, wiping out paragraphs—one had the Pride of Chanur firing as I wrote it, but she didn’t get ‘that space stuff’ so she’d wiped out the sections that had them undocking from the station.
CJ: Awful! It must annoy you beyond words. I like ‘as berserk as weasels in a henhouse’. It seems very apt. 🙂
One more thing before I go away. I was thinking of ordering something from this website, but would like to send a request with the order. I’m not sure how to initiate communication within Closed Circle (Buy New Books), through which an order can be placed. Could you please advise?
My sister is now fixated on Foreigner. She is up to volume five…
We’ve actually had weasels in the henhouse and the aftermath is horrifying! Truly. This simile makes perfect sense, and the damage that copyeditors have done must have been violent and messy.