I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
I fear any attempt at screening these wonderful books would result in disappointment. Because of the brilliant descriptions and characterization in the books I have a clear picture of the Atevi and their world. I somehow don’t think anyone could (or would want to) capture that on film…
I’ve got to agree: too much of the action in the Foreigner series needs access to Bren’s (sometimes faulty) thought processes to make sense to be portrayed on screen.
I’m thinking of one of my favorite “That’s not good…” moments, when Caijeri protests at being kept from the human kids by saying “but they’re my friends!”. No comment is needed—anyone whose read that far knows immediately how dangerous that line is. But could you possibly make a TV audience understand that?
Cherryh’s works tend to play to the strengths of the written word by going inside characters’ heads. This translates badly to visual media. (Merchanter’s Luck might work, though; or even Sam Jones.)
When the first Foreigner books came out (mid 1990s), my immediate thought was Michael J. Fox as Bren, simply because he was a terrific actor, looked good in blonde hair, and was SHORT – that way, you just hire tall people to play Atevi, and you don’t have to do the whole LORD OF THE RINGS thing with child/dwarf body doubles.
For Ilisidi, the late Eartha Kitt – she was about Fox’s height, and I can imagine her walking down the corridor of the space station, doing schtick with the cane in one hand.
And it would definitely have to be a TV series, probably by HBO or Showtime or one of the pay-cable networks. On the plus side, the first three books barely require any special effects or far-fetch Sci-Fi do-dads – the Atevi are basically at 1970’s to 1980’s tech level. Even the space-based scenes starting in the 2nd and 3rd trilogies are not that demanding from an FX standpoint – no big-time star-ship battles or other falderal.
The big problem is the fact that this IS a political/social thriller. All the central characters, particular Bren and his staff, would have to be REALLY good actors, to get across the concepts of man’chi, the formality of relations and language, that the Atevi are subtly “alien”, etc.
THAT, and the fact that NOBODY is having sex on-screen except Jago and Bren . . . which is my BIG problem with THE BORGIAS, THE TUDORS, SPARTACUS, even GAME OF THRONES – two gratuitous nekkid women scenes required per episode. Though the number of times Cajieri has seen his female bodyguards in their underwear, it makes me wonder how “unfortunate 8” this kid is . . .
He’s curious, intelligent, precocious, and atevi may mature differently than humans.
Consider it biological and anthropological field studies.
Not buying it, are you? LOL.
Though seriously, those qualities, or natural leadership or extrovert tendencies, risk-taking, would also tend to support more noticing of their felicitous natural scenic attributes.
OK, kidding aside, atevi culture and biological norms may differ a bit from humans. It may not be a big deal for them.
—–
I could see Michael J. Fox as Bren. Or Matthew Broderick. — Hmm, they’d have to work out prosthetics or CGI or both for the atevi alien body and facial structure, mecheiti, etc., and careful costuming and sets. It might need the same sorts of CGI morphing used to get the LOTR characters to be alien (hobbit, etc.) in proportions. Used also somewhat in the HP films, I think.
@northwestsmith and BlueCatShip: at the start of Destroyer, when Cajeiri wants a slumber party including Irene for his infelicitous-eight birthday party and doesn’t see anything wrong with that, Ilisidi said: “Puberty is coming. Then things will occur to him.” And Bren thinks “Much as humans knew about atevi, and an earlier puberty in certain high-ranking individuals was one of those items, …”.
There was another mention of something like this later in the book when 16- and 17-year old Jegari and Antaro bond with Cajeiri in Taiben: “What sets off the spark, that hits one hard at eight, and the other two blithely unattached to any loyalty but their parents, evidently, until they’re midteens?” This is about the spark of man’chi attachment. I see some parallels with the earlier puberty in aiji-potential youngsters, who are expected to start attracting man’chi around the same age they are expected to be (close to) starting puberty.
And Cajeiri’s been thinking (IIRC it was while hiding in the tower on Geigi’s garden wall) about how he can feel himself changing, and starting to develop the proper atevi feelings and instinctual responses (because of the close contact with Jegari and Antaro, and being among atevi), and his consequent insights into how his aishid works.
I think Cajeiri, a year later, beginning to notice his female bodyguard in her underwear, instead of totally focussing on whatever is going on to necessitate her turning up in undress, is a sign that his puberty has started. An interesting time.
One thing we do know: puberty isn’t a brake on growing taller, and may be a growth promotor, as Tabini is said to be tall even for an ateva, and he’d have had the early puberty as well, as he is a strong aiji. I wonder if atevi have growth spurts, and grow clumsy with them? Cajeiri seemed to be becoming more coördinated in his movements, less likely to accidentally knock things over. He won’t like getting clumsy again, or getting growing pains! He will like getting taller, and more equal with the grown-ups.
I’m looking forward with interest to how this will influence the social dynamics in him-and-his-aishid, as well as the effect on him of the responsability for Boji.
I found it very interesting, that coming to these instincts late, after having been exposed to Bren’s need to reason out what is happening inside the atevi surrounding him, Cajeiri too applies his logic to his developing feeling for man’chi. I really hope he will continue to do so, and extend that to his growing up in other ways. It gives us insights into the atevi way of thinking and feeling that Bren can’t quite match, and that ordinary atevi who just naturally act on their instincts and don’t know another way exists probably can’t explain either, unless they’re both extremely perceptive, clever and introspective.
Geigi has that: he would be great as a viewpoint. I really hope his ‘prologue’ stays in the second-to-next book, when it’s done!
I really hope that after a prologue in Peacemaker, there will be a continuation of Bren’s story, since for me his aishid, Tabini and Ilisidi are the pivot around which everything turns. I am very much interested in how the story around these characters develops – it has been the core of this work.
One thing I would like to know is a bit about Algini’s background – there are hints, for instance, that he experienced two traumatic events in his past. He is an enigma. Was he, in fact, the Guildmaster at one time? How did he and Tano get together? Was it around the time when Bren entered the picture for them? Did Tano help him out of his difficulties in some way? (Perhaps this will be a part of the ‘prologue’?)
What is the nature of Jago’s ‘feelings’ for Bren? So far we’ve only really seen their relationships from Bren’s perspective.
How will things work out between Machigi and Ilisidi?
Who (apart from Bren) will deal with the Kyo when they eventually turn up, if they ever do? (Will Ilisidi be up to another trip to space?)
All this is of great interest to me.
On another tangent, I keep wondering how Ilisidi’s mechieti arrived in Taiben in Invader? Were they transported by ship from Malguri? Surely not overland?
THere is the transcontinental railroad. You may imagine how happy the mechieti were NOT, by the time they were freighted overland.
Yes – I had visions of the mechieti being transported by a ship and kicking the ship to pieces! The railway carriages used to transport them would probably have had to be lined with thick steel…
And I assure you, Bren is in good form.
Fantastic! Thank you for that – I cannot wait to see what he’s been up to, and more of his clever manoeuvres. 🙂
After reading Intruder, I did, of course, have to go back and re-read the series from the beginning. 🙂 I’m back up to Conspirator, and I gotta ask: what apartment have the Farai taken over? I don’t remember seeing Bren in any Bu-javid apartment other than the Atageini one (and the dowager’s, briefly). Did I completely miss something, or was that a place he lived in between-the-books?
I think I missed something…it’s just occurred to me that Narani and Bindanda must have come from somewhere…therefore Bren must had his own place before he went to space…
From memory, I believe a number of years elapsed between a couple of the books, and it was in those years that Bren lived in that apartment. (But I may be wrong.)
Yeah, I was thinking that must have been what happened. I don’t have the book by me right now, but I seem to remember him leaving his apt to go see Tabini at the beginning of a book (Defender?) and Damiri coming in and letting slip that Bren was going aloft, and then he returned to his apt to find that everyone was already packing. I think that might have been the only time we saw that apt, and since I was accustomed to the Atageini one, I sort of mentally put him there instead.
Different question, for CJ-nandi if she’s be so kind… did you know what Tano and Algini were when you introduced them in Foreigner, or did they just kind of expand into who they are now?
And do you have a planned number of books for the series? I know that Jim Butcher, for instance, said he has a planned number of books for the Dresden files, at which point he’s presumably planning to turn to something else.
With all respect and understanding regarding pond hell, allergies, and computer troubles taking up valuable mental real estate… 🙂 and perhaps a desire not to even vaguely commit to a particular number, those dangerous things… These are just things I find myself wondering on a regular basis.
Lol—Plan? We don’t need no stinking plan….
It sounds kind of weird, but sometimes characters arrive and then tell me who they are…
It took Algini a long time to open up even a little bit.
Tano is the outgoing one…but Tano’s very ‘bubbly’ manner is itself pretty good camouflage, for both of them.
CJ: that first sentence sounds like something Gollum would say. (Good to keep us all guessing, though – I never want the sequence to end.)
With regard to Tano, I’ve often wondered whether his relatively ‘sweet’ personality (for an Ateva) doesn’t cover up the fact that he, rather than Algini, was in fact the Guildmaster. Perhaps the enigmatic characters in the story will yield a few more answers to such questions one day…
mrgawe: one other comment with regard to Tano and Algini. In Foreigner they were introduced as servants, but Bren learned quite soon that they were much more than that. In one of the recent books, I believe there is the suggestion that they were in fact inserted into Bren’s association (or inserted themselves) as senior representatives of the Assassins Guild. This was to keep an eye on what Bren was up to and ensure that it was not detrimental to the Atevi.
That’s my impression of those two so far.
I agree. It’s just that in the process of rereading the series, it occurred to me that there’d been enough ambiguity in their initial introduction to support either the idea that CJ had big plans for them right from the start…or that they’d decided to create bigger roles for themselves as the series progressed. It sounds like it was the latter case, which is a good argument for not having the entire life history planned out for your characters, so you can take advantage of it when they decide to surprise you. 🙂
I love those two characters. The more we find out about them, the more mysterious they become…
Now THAT’s a hard trick to pull off.
I totally agree. 🙂
Heat lamps are always useful. Took a long time to get the truth out of the Wesser! Think I went through several lamps….
Well, I just bought Cyteen from Audible.com! I’ve already read it, but I was so excited to see it there and want to listen to it, too. Any plans to do the Foreigner series in Audio, CJ?
While I’m not sure that they would translate well into video, I know they would be great in audio with the right narrator. And you’ve got a couple of great ones doing Cyteen!
All the bother about heirs got me thinking. Does Bren need an heir for his estate?
Biological, you mean? Or adopted or fostered? Or simply naming some lucky (unlucky?) soul as heir? Unless the atevi are sticklers for biological inheritance, Bren could name whom he wants. It’d be binding in human law, with a valid legal will. Both atevi and humans would seem inclined to pass things within family or close associates.
This always assumes some usurper doesn’t come along and take the estate by conquest or legal machinations.
This also assumes Bren doesn’t do something both so out of character and displeasing to atevi thinking (or political expedience) that he loses the estate. It seems unlikely Bren would intentionally do something antithetical to atevi sensibilities, however.
Herself may, of course, have quite other ideas in mind. Which is why she’s the bestselling author, and I’m reading. 😉
I shouldn’t think the Atevi would be very happy about a human heir inheriting an estate on the Atevi mainland! It would also be against the Treaty.
Should the Mospheirans ever live in close proximity with the Atevi again, as happened before the war, this would almost certainly result in another war. The majority of Mospheirans don’t know the Atevi or care about them – they clearly care principally about their creature comforts. (They are really not interesting compared with the Atevi and it would be unfortunate to see any of them – apart from Bren, of course – incorporated into the series very much.)
I would imagine the estate would pass back to the Atevi should Bren die (God forbid) – and I don’t think it’s yet time to start thinking about that, since he is still a relatively young man.
The elephant in the room that everybody is tiptoeing around is not who will succeed to the manor but who will be Bren’s immediate successor as Paidhi-Aiji and Lord of the heavens. Since Bren transferred his allegience to Tabini from the Human government, active provisions for succession appear to have been in total abeyance. That event will have as huge an influence on the future as a an all-out intra or inter-species war would and is inevitable rather than merely speculative. Beside the fact that, in common with Human societies, the Atevi appear to pass associated manoral estates as part and parcel of the titles, the actions of the new Paidhi will affect the Atevi more powerfully than any political fallout from the inheritance of his Mainland estate by many orders of magnitude.
Now that the rôle of the paidhi no longer includes tech transfer to the atevi, the estate & title might be needed to give future paidhiin clout within the aishidi’tat. It wasn’t friendship that caused Tabini to give Bren that estate.
I respectfully disagree, he has changed allegience, picked up immense new responsibilities, is overtly Tabiuni’s partisan, but obviously, tech transfer and its effects on the future of Atevi society are still a primary focus of his office. I don’t believe that his authority over transfers was ever absolute, regardless of laws and treaties. It was more suasive, since in either case, the establishment could act contrary to his judgements for whatever they deemed just cause. Indeed, in the early books when his position was fully delineated by law and tradition, the Human government appeared to be constantly trying to subvert his authority for reasons of both policy and Ministry politics.
You will be interested to know, perhaps, that this question does come up in the next couple of books. 😉
But the trouble with human isolation (by both humans and atevi) is that if a real association between the two species is going to work, then there would need to be closer contact between the two species at some point. The alternative is that the humans would need to find another place to live, either the station or another ship or planet. That wouldn’t preclude continued association and alliance and trade between the two species, though.
I’m not suggesting anything one way or the other. One, I’m nowhere near the current book, and two, it’s not my place as a fan to say what “should” happen, since only Herself knows what “should” or “will” happen, and likely, that will be quite different from what I just said, because life is far more messy than that. 😉
Respectfully, I think it’s a bit unfair to assume anything about individual Mospheirans whom we haven’t yet met. A broad brush look at the Atevi wouldn’t be particularly flattering either! 😀
I’m betting there are some really interesting humans who track everything they can get about the Atevi and Bren. I know I would be, if I were living on that world. That’s where all the interesting development is taking place. Depends on how much information sneaks out. I’d love to see real bridging between the island and the continent occur.
Sooo glad to hear Protector is done – not to mention the progress on Peacemaker! Do we have an idea when it (Protector) might be available to us insatiable readers? I know of no other series that has been as sustained as the Foreigner series. Characters and plots stay fresh and intriguing. Genius!
I was thinking that adopting and/or fostering seems most likely, if they needed to. Given Bren and his Aishid’s experience with Cajeiri, I think they could do it. I was just wondering if his heir would inherit the whole package, including Najida, the Heavens, his apartment in the Bujavid, and the post of Paidhi. Plus the outstanding model of Bren’s Aishid. More than one heir, maybe. Maybe let Geigi have the Heavens. Does the next Paidhi have to be human? I can easily imagine the post morphing into something more universal than just dealing with Humans, and I can see an Ateva learning the job. Doesn’t mean it’ll happen, but pondering on it all keeps me amused.
Yes, I’m very “interested to know” how all that will work out. The kid in me still finds it all wonderful and awesome. Downright thrilling, sometimes. Thanks for that, CJ.
Having both human and atevi paidhiin seems ultimately likely, but the position of paidhi-aiji seems to be a particular relationship. The paidhi-aiji is the human translator (and in effect ambassador) to the aiji and the parliament (I can’t recall the atevi term just now) from the humans, and is the one who interprets both cultures for each other. An ateva paidhi would need to be expert enough with human language/culture to be able to interpret likewise. I would think at some future point, it could happen, or there could be a staff of multiple paidhiin, with the paidhi-aiji in charge. However, I think that would require amendment or a new Treaty.
As for adoption or fostering, by Bren, in order to pass on the estate and other holdings, real or office-role, I don’t have a real guess what would happen. My hunch is the estate will go back to the atevi, unless Tabini-aiji (or his eventual successor) has some good reason to keep a human holding an estate, titles, or the (surely problematic and emotionally-charged) issue of adoption and fostering and human involvement in atevi life.
Hmm, I would think an ambitious aiji, wanting to retain power, as well as the high ground in control of the heavens, would want “Lord of the Heavens” for him-/herself. — The atevi popular fear of “alien death rays from the skies!” would mean that a smart aiji would surely have thought of the skies as the “high ground” in military terms, and things like the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress scenario of the risk of meteors hurled down from orbit at high V. That one might cause both Bren and Tabini a lot of sleepless nights, Kyo or no Kyo, Phoenix or no Phoenix. — And no, I’m not suggesting that will or should happen. At some point, it’s likely to occur to various atevi and humans, the various problems and possibilities of objects in space / orbit.
I would bet that anything connecting human and atevi in lines of succession or adoption, fostering, family ties, would be a huge trouble spot among atevi, no matter what their opinions on it are.
Yes, it’s fun guessing at the possibilities, and great fun seeing what actually happens in the books.
I would agree with that assessment, BlueCatShip – especially your second paragraph.
The role of paidhi has changed because the stage has been reached where humans have handed over their technology, and the Atevi are developing and refining it in their own way. Given their skill with numbers, and their drive and energy, it appears that they will eventually be more developed technologically than the humans.
There would always need to be an ambassador who understood both cultures – Atevi and/or human – who would smooth things between the species by acting as translator, particularly if the humans remain on the planet and don’t eventually find one of their own. (The planet-bound humans will at some point outgrow Mospheira, given the human breeding rate generally. There is no evidence that they practise rigorous birth control to keep down the human population.)
God forbid that we get a ‘son of Barb’ scenario. I am hoping that members of Bren’s family in general have finally realized – through experiencing all that happened in Deceiver and Betrayer – that they just get underfoot on their self-indulgent ‘fishing trips’, etc.
For myself, I am most interested in the development of the Atevi side of the story, especially as seen through Bren’s eyes, which has been the case throughout this sequence. What will the Atevi be up to next, and what more will we learn about them both as individuals and as a culture?
And yes, I would think that the aiji would certainly want to maintain power and control over both the planet and the heavens – quite rightly in my view, since the planet belongs to the Atevi, and humans live on it on sufferance.
Another thing that just occurred to me: Caijeri won’t have too much to do with his time for many, many years, since (I sincerely hope) Tabini will live a long and interesting life.
Caijeri would seem to be an individual who could take care of inter-species negotiations once he has grown up, until the time comes for him to be aiji. He has certainly gained knowledge of both the Kyo and humans as he has been growing up, and would be much better prepared for such a task than any human apart from Bren.
He is always complaining that he is bored – and frankly I cannot see him sitting in an apartment, or just visiting various relatives throughout most of his life.
@BCS: “a staff of multiple paidhiin, with the paidhi-aiji in charge” is already in existence, ever since book 3 or thereabouts: Jase and Yolanda are both paidhiin and have functioned as such. Much of the technical translation work for building the shuttles has been done by Bren’s clerical staff, with Bren giving it the final check (as stated somewhere in book 3, IIRC); that means a lot of atevi have also started to take on a part of what, until recently, was the paidhi’s job.
As far as tech transfer goes, Bren has told Tabini (also around book 3) that humans and atevi have mostly reached parity, except for some specialised areas like genetics (and maybe medicine?) for which massive computers are necessary, which had until the start of the space program not been much used by atevi. Now atevi have started using computers, and have the whole human archive (sent down from the ship), they are in priciple capable of filling in any gaps. – but specialist explanations/translations may still be necessary for some esoteric concepts.
Poor Bren: if he’d have to start to learn genetics, and astrophysics, and quantum physics, and those kind of subjects as well as all he’s got on his plate already, just so he can explain them to the atevi – I think his head would explode. But by the time the atevi starship is finished, some atevi will have to understand astrophysics and/or astronavigation, and whatever nuclear or quantum engines power the ship, and someone is going to have to translate and explain the human textbooks that the ship’s pilots and engineers use in training. Gin has learned a little bit of atevi on the journey, and quite a few atevi have learned to understand some human speech. Working together on the station, in day-to-day interaction people may be mostly sticking to the phrase-book Bren and Jase have put together, but I’d bet there are some people on both sides who will start to pick things up and maybe experiment a bit.
I expect a team of paidhiin, of several levels, will arise: from simple ‘technical’ translators (like the clerical staff, and maybe people at the airport tower, or at seaside ports, or people from the Messengers Guild at the telephone exchanges between Mospheira and the mainland and the station, or at computer hubs), through to lower-level interpreters of nuances and culture like Jase and Yolanda, and some people in the University department on Mospheira, who may also add to the dictionary; to the top-level paidhi-aiji who is the definitive interpreter of new and difficult things and the final arbiter on words and interpretations sent up by the lower levels.
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@chesty, brennan, BCS.
Regarding the heir for Bren, remember he’s only in his thirties, and can hope to have a good long life ahead of him yet!
He’s had a very busy seven years or so, since the start of the series, and hasn’t had much time to think about doing anything about who’s to succeed him – when he can hope to be active himself for another thirty or forty years (depending on what his retirement plans are, and since he resigned as Mospheira’s representative I don’t think he’s been very interested in planning for that 😉 ).
Atevi seem to require succession by someone within the clan, or the constellation of clans, but it doesn’t seem to have to be a direct descendant. We’ve seen several instances of ‘sideways’ inheritance within a clan, or even to a subclan as with Geigi’s appointment of the new Maschi clanhead. This also demonstrates that the higher aiji within or over the clan can grant the house and position to the person he deems best suited. Machigi does something like that as well, in the last book, endorsing the successor to a subordinate affiliated clan. Considering the man’chi keeping the clan together, inheritance by a strong figure who’s acceptable to most clan-members seems a lot more important than direct descent from the previous leader.
As a child is part of the clan, even if he is an orphan he wouldn’t be fostered out of the clan; and if he is part of the clan I’d think he doesn’t need to be adopted by the clanhead to be eligible for the succession. Fostering might be useful, as a kind of apprenticeship. IIRC, much of atevi youth learns their trade through apprenticeships, not so much through trade colleges, so that fostering with a master from whom you’re learning, if you can’t or don’t want to learn your parent’s trade, may be common.
I only remember it being said to be common for future aijiin, both to build multiple ties and insights into different people and families, and (I’d guess) to see different leadership styles in action firsthand.
Atevi have been very private about most things to do with their close families, having and raising children, childhood development etc.. The idea of a human fostering an atevi child would probably cause enormous outcry, unless maybe the child was born to his household. Apart from Bren’s aishid, his household as well as the village is mostly Edi; and the Edi are a separate clan with a long history of troubled relations with the aishiditat, who have just gained their own lordship and seat in the hasdrawad. Having Bren raise an Edi child as his successor would not be acceptable, neither to the Edi (they trust him quite a bit as lord of the manor and mediator, but he will never be Edi) nor to the rest of the aishiditat.
Adopting and raising a human child in his household is extremely unlikely: his ties in Mospheira are not that good, and no adoption agency would consider that a safe and good environment to place a child in. Also, Bren’s human successor would need to be both a mathematical genius (for a human) and very good at communication and at assessing social situations. This is not something every baby or child could be raised to be good at. And Bren’s life is too hectic, and often (for the foreseeable future) too unsafe to be raising a young child in, who is not yet capable of understanding the situations that can suddenly arise.
So, for a human successor to the traditional paidhi’s role it will probably still be best to choose the best of the University candidates, though Bren might like some input in the selection criteria.
This would be a good source for the traditional-style paidhi, but not for the lordship of Najida or the heavens.
These might best be divorced from the traditional paidhi’s role as translator and interpretator between humans and atevi on earth, and even from each other.
Giving the Lord of the Heavens title to Geigi would make sense, maybe in conjuction with Jase. Geigi is already the interpreter and authority for atevi on the station, and could quite well act as a point of contact for visitors from space. Jase and Yolanda could support him in this as his paidhi-to-aliens and to station-humans. As communication between people on the station is growing, this is useful, certainly with the influx of newcomers from the other station. If the ship goes out again, it’s important to have a paidhi-to-aliens kind of figure aboard the ship too.
The trouble with making Geigi Lord of the Heavens is Geigi’s age (older than Bren) and his lack of a worthy successor. Ilisidi’s plan to let him part-raise Baiji’s child as his heir may solve the Kajiminda lordship, but that child would have the same trouble Geigi had recently, if (s)he had to try to be both a good-but-absentee lord for Kajiminda and a good Lord of the Heavens, living on the station like Geigi does now. Maybe Baiji will have twins, that might work?
The last remaining source of a youngster to raise in or near Bren’s household would be family/clan of his aishid (or maybe some of the immediate servants: not all of those are Edi; some came from Tabini, IIRC). They are of Tabini’s man’chi, but not Taiben as far as I have seen; so any child related to them would be part of Tabini’s man’chi, but not part of another clan. This would be important to the aishiditat: the paidhi’s office is neutral in atevi clan affairs, but loyal to the aiji, and must clearly be seen to remain that way.
Someone from this group, if he/she has spent enough time at Najida to become known and trusted to the surrounding Edi, and to feel a responsibility to them, might be the best candidate for the heirship of Najida.
This office might grow into a hereditary neutral mediator-role, the traditional white-ribbon functionary which Bren is now re-inventing. His local affiliations are no more than one small village, and an ultimate loyalty to the aiji which helps guarantee his trustworthyness, so in most situations he can be an impartial mediator without the entangled historical web of associations.
Bren has been given both his estate at Najida, and his title as Lord of the Heavens, directly by Tabini. This implies that Tabini / the aiji (Cajeiri, if Bren lasts that long!) is also the person who will have the final say in who is to inherit either of those. He will chose the person best suited to that role with regard to the whole aishiditat, and not only to Bren’s household or the people of the estate. Tabini may very well want Bren’s particular strengths and capacities handed on to the next generation, and thus allow or set possible candidates to learn from him.
What it doesn’t necessarily mean is having Bren raising a heir for either or all three of his present functions, as that might rebound in atevi conservatives distrusting that child forever, thus making him/her useless in future.
I rather feel Tabini is doing this already, with Cajeiri, though he’s destined to become aiji himself: letting him learn as much as possible from Bren, insofar as is possible without totally yeopardising his future standing with the conservatives. This might mean that Tabini recognises the difficulty of acquiring a successor for Bren who is just as good as Bren, and can take up all his offices: if Cajeiri is that good himself, he can make do with (a) lesser successor(s).
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@Sapphire, there is no evidence that humans on Mospheira are growing out of space, or not practicing birth control. The humans on the stations and the ship certainly do so, and know to remain within available resouces. The Mospheirans came from that background. The Mospheiran families we know of have a limited amount of children (Bren and Toby, Toby’s two children, one of Bren’s old girlfriends IIRC has three).
When birth control is available, as it clearly is, societies tend to even out at about replacement numbers, generally 2-3 children to a family (viz.European birthrates) unless there is strong pressure, e.g. from religions or a high death rate, to increase the numbers.
When and while there is a lot of room and resources to spare, numbers will increase (viz. the extra pregnancies among the evacuated station-populace, going from deprivation to an expanding station with a plentiful supply, as far as everyone knew during the trip back); but that doen not mean they will automatically overrun their available resources.
The whole society is much more environmentally-conscious than present-day earth as a whole: having chosen to emphasize this in their technology-transfer to the atevi, it is also present in Mospheiran society, even if they have not given up private transport and have a lot more cars than the mainland. On the other hand, I have never seen a mention of any of the breed-to-overwhelm-the-opposition-till-you-bleed-the-planet-dry religious imperatives being active among these space-going humans. I’d guess that the initial colonists (intending to build a space-station) would not have been of that persuasion anyway, as it is totally untenable in the limited closed environment of a spaceship or spacestation.
‘When birth control is available, as it clearly is, societies tend to even out at about replacement numbers, generally 2-3 children to a family (viz.European birthrates) unless there is strong pressure, e.g. from religions or a high death rate, to increase the numbers.
When and while there is a lot of room and resources to spare, numbers will increase (viz. the extra pregnancies among the evacuated station-populace, going from deprivation to an expanding station with a plentiful supply, as far as everyone knew during the trip back); but that doen not mean they will automatically overrun their available resources.’
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Hanneke: With respect, I disagree. Humans in general are not altruistic. Like in any other species, the urge to procreate is dominant in our species. We are already depleting our available resources through over-population. There are far too many humans on our planet, especially in places like China and India, to which birth control is available.
There are few people on Earth who refrain from breeding purely because they do not want to bring more humans into the world due to the damage this is causing. You hear people talking about the dangers of over-population, yet they themselves bring offspring into the world. The vast majority of people think of themselves and their immediate surroundings, and disregard the damage they are doing to the planet (including the destruction of the environment as long as it is not on their doorstep). Most people do not care about the fact that they are causing huge damage to environments at the other side of the world through ever increasing consumption – including the extinction of species other than their own, which once gone cannot be brought back.
The majority of Mospheirans mirror the majority of humans on our planet (human nature does not change). As has been stated many times, they care only for their creature comforts and don’t give a fig for the Atevi and their planet.
Something fairly consistent across cultures is that richer societies tend to smaller families than poorer. Japan & Western Europe aren’t even replacing themselves. As soon as children become more of an obligation than an investment, people slow down.
Not sure if this will hold for the atevi, but with humans—on Terra or Mospheira—the best way to limit population expansion is to get people living in “first world” conditions.
If everyone on our planet lived in First World conditions, the world’s resources would be rapidly depleted at at even faster rate than is happening at present, which would ultimately result in global wars over resources. An average individual from an affluent Western society consumes many times more than an average individual from a poor Third World society, thus doing far more damage to the planet.
Comparatively wealthy Western societies also bear a huge responsibility for the desecration of the environment in poorer countries.
Ever since Bren went over to the dark(er) side, the treaty has been technically in abeyance because Bren no longer works for the Foreign Office. On the other hand he still tries to retain a firm grip on tech transfer and its diffusion into rural areas, so little seems changed there except that his sources of human distraction are almost all personal connections now. It’s true that he appears to be both robust and lucky but neither is proof against knife, projectile or poison which he has spent a fair amount of time dodging in most of the books to date. If succession did require a form of adoption, something that seems to occur in some form in Atevi society when a direct heir or sub-clan member is unavailable, there shouldn’t be any problem if he were to perform a Roman style adoption. Certainly, he wouldn’t want or need an infant to train, he would need to select a promising student or students to train and sleect from. Aside from her limited cabilities, his biggest problem with Murchison was that her loyalties lay entirely with a faction at home rather than the requirements of the office.
Although I agree, first world nations use up (waste) resources at a shocking rate, I think I have to add a caveat into the assumptions we’re making.
Yes, in general, humans use up resources when they’re available and fight over them when they are not available. Humans can be very bratty and aggressive apes toward each other, history shows all too often, even in developed nations. Technology and affluence do not much curb that aggressive streak. We haven’t yet learned to control it (ourselves).
Humans also have an instinct toward both sex for procreation and sex for pleasure, from back when we were much lower on the food chain. (The big predators and illness and injury were highly likely to kill our ancestors, so high birth rates were not such a problem.) Nothing particularly wrong with the pleasure part, it helps bond whichever two participate, mates or friendship ties either one, eases tensions, etc. — Never mind that once we were sapient, things like religion and other social behavioral standards could come into play telling us what we “should” and “should not” do. (And those standards can be either good or very bad, depending, but the ones bad for survival or unlivable, tend to disappear.)
All of which is not to yell at or disagree with anyone’s statements above, as most of us are aware of things like that.
But here’s where our assumptions on this need that caveat. Over the next few decades (centuries?) required to master the technologies to make it into space and survive there, colonize via stations and planets and so on, this is going to have correlated circumstances for humanity. One, it will take time to figure out how to do these things. Space travel and living and colonizing other environments are not easy at all. Two, meanwhile, on Earth, population is increasing, there are demands on environment, resources, food and ecological supplies, and so on. Humans have to learn to make do with what we have, find how to produce resources, save resources, and (big one) how to get along when we disagree. (Just because Person A and Person B disagree on religion, politics, or lawn ornaments doesn’t mean they get to cry “heathen” and commit homicide or genocide, after all.) (Which, really, is likely obvious to us here.)
The thing is, the jump from Earth-bound species to planetary orbit (space station and moon base) is just the first step. There is then the jump to Mars, the planetoids, outer planet moons, into interplanetary space, the Solar System. During that time, we can expect Earth’s population and resource pressures to reach a critical point, and we all know that since WWII, the species has had the deadly ability to kill itself and its neighboring species off in several very nasty ways. That religion and politics thing again, and no such group is immune to being stupid, ignorant, mean, or hateful, unfortunately. We can only hope that “the _____s love their children too,” to paraphrase Sting. 🙂
But after expanding into interplanetary space, there is then the even bigger hurdle of coming up with a way to get to the next star system. Not even the next system with an Earth-habitable zone or planets. (And I wonder if those other Earth-like planets don’t already have their own busy bio/ecosystems that might not appreciate pushy, grabby new neighbors).
My point in outlining that is, some time within the decades or centuries required to get through those stages and into a feasible and mature interstellar exploration or expansion, how to conquer the distance and time alone (near C? generational or cryo-ships?) or finding the as-yet-seemingly-impossible lightspeed barrier (wormholes?) — Humans meanwhile will have to have developed ingrained social and behavioral habits, how to do things, that allow survivability, sustainability. Or if we don’t, we’re liable to use up the planet and kill off our species, directly or indirectly. — Unless we find ways to get along, manage resources, produce what we need to consume, and be able to stand living together as a species and one species among all the others on Earth, and still do so in a way that does not cramp basic human instincts in a way we can’t keep up long enough to make it last. (And yes, sex and love, family and friendship, are certainly major drives we have to accommodate, just as much as the need to eat, have a home base, things to do and think about beyond necessity, get along with the surrounding world (natural forces, other lifeforms) and … well, all of it.
It’s a very tall order. It is one I hope we can manage, even if so often the headlines seem to show we are not managing to get there. The thing is, there are reasonable, friendly, thinking people out there (even among people we don’t agree with) just as much as there are idiots seemingly bent on destruction of self and others.
So what I’m arguing, in so roundabout a way, is that by the time we’d get to the point of a first few starships reaching other stars able to colonize, those people would have to have some things ingrained in them of what works and what doesn’t work, of how to behave and how not to behave.
For all that the Mospheiran humans seem bent on suburban hedonism (much like our present times) it’s apparent they are highly conscious of the potential for disaster if Earth organisms are introduced on the atevi homeworld, or if technology and social change follow some of the same destructive paths that they did in the expansion from Europe and Asia into the rest of the planet, and the Industrial Revolution and beyond.
I would say that although yes, people in developed countries tend to have fewer children because they limit by various ways, that doesn’t mean they lack the drive to produce children or make love / have sex for whatever recreational / non-procreational reasons they might do that. And really — even so, the population rate is increasing at a likely unsustainable rate, unless we change how we do things. Likewise for resource usage.
There just have to be alternatives. And whoever makes it onto a starship with a mission to explore and colonize a nearby Earth-like system, somehow must have survived the current and future situations, so presumably, they’d have ways (habits and rules) that exert some sustainable control over it. …Or one would hope.
My argument may be just as idealistic, dreamy, or flawed, however. I’m not ultimately sure how much to attribute to Don Quixote versus Mark Twain versus Malthus….
BlueCatShip: I think you may have more faith in human nature than I do. 🙂
Of course the only way we (and much of the planet with us) are going to survive is to go out to space. However, doing this in a way that would produce benefits for the planet would take not decades, but centuries. Technologically, we are still a long way off venturing into space (beyond the Moon). In our societies, there is also not much will to engage in space exploration of any kind. It is viewed by most people, who live/think only in the present, as a waste of money.
I fear an over-population/scarce resources crisis will occur well before we could manage to venture into space.
I hope I am wrong.