I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
I think that Cajeiri is Bren’s “son,” in the sense that he takes a paternal interest in the boy and is greatly attached to him. Just as Bren seems to have realized and accepted that he will probably never have (and never want) a relationship with a human woman because of his career, I think he sees no “child,” human or ateva, in his future. Clearly no human child will be given into his care. And why would he raise an atevi child? He already has doubts about whether his influence on Cajeiri will be uniformly beneficial to the boy’s future, as an aji and an ateva. Bren’s influence and Cajeiri’s friendship with human children are already a source of unease in atevi culture. Would a man of Bren’s integrity want to inflict such a state of affairs on still another child?
I think CJ explored this issue in her book “Cuckoo’s Egg,” where a member of one species raises another. And I always wished I could read that tale from the other side, from the point of view of humans interacting with a man raised to be hatani.
That Bren has a paternal streak seems clear. He expresses great concern for the safety and well-being of Toby’s children in Precursor. All the same, though, he seems uninvolved in their lives. He seems to have spent time only with Barb and his mother during his vacations on Mospheira. He sends no mail or presents as “Uncle Bren.”
Intruder makes it clear, I think, that Damiri will take pains to shield her second child from Bren’s influence, especially since that influence inevitably embroils one with Ilisidi. I can see Bren being kind of wistful about this, but respecting Damiri’s wishes–not that he will have much choice about the matter. But Bren is “attractive:” what an imbroglio it would be if Cajeiri’s baby sister wants to follow big brother into Bren’s orbit.
When Cajeiri says of Bren, “He’s mine!” I think he means it in the sense of My Associate, and not in the sense a human would, the “ownership” model (and if Cajeiri does mean it in the ownership manner, oh dear! human contamination). Association seems to be more a matter of choice and politics, practicalities and affinities than is man’chi, and I don’t think “My Associate” has the same emotional hooks as man’chi or “He’s mine!” the way humans usually mean it.
I just finished re-reading Precursor. I’ve said it before: in this series, the humans have become stranger than the so-called aliens. Two hundred years in a wholly manufactured environment with the same few thousand souls in a highly hierarchical, class bifurcated society in an environment–space–that is both perpetually dangerous and rigorously regimented, plus a diet of reconstituted algae–I get the willies just thinking about it.
Indeed, with regard to Cajeiri, Bren says as much, for example in Pretender – that Cajeiri is the closest he will ever have to a son.
Those that have a ‘higher purpose’ which takes up much of their time frequently don’t consider having children to be the pinnacle of achievement or a necessity. One could argue that it is not even very desirable for them to have children, since they are too heavily engaged in their ‘purpose’ to give any offspring the attention that is required.
Personally, I don’t think Bren needs an heir, Calerji is the heir in most senses of the word. As the Paidhi, Bren was the liaison between the humans and Atevi, now, thanks to his white ribbon, between Atevi and Atevi, and of course the spacers and the Kyo. However, Calerji is also versed in all of the requisite languages and has “associations” in these areas as well. His skills as a negotiator (thanks mostly to Grandmother and Great uncle) are superlative, he thinks on his feet and as far as I can tell he comes to the correct conclusions most of the time, just a little behind his adult monitors. Unlike Bren, his understanding of the Atevi mind is intuitive, yet like Giegi, his concept of Friend is rather firm and solid. i do believe that he will inherit not only the Aiji but the office of Paidhi as well. i believe that he will be the embodiment of what Bren and Tabini are trying to accomplish by unifying the continent, the island and space. Bren’s mentoring of Calerji has been instrumental in rounding out his experiential education, so to speak.
It is possible, however unlikely, that Caijeiri could become the Paidhi upon Bren’s retirement. It would be virtually impossible for him to continue to serve as Paidhi once the office of aiji becomes vacant. In the first place, the Paidhi is essentially a go-between, an independent mediator who both interprets between the sides and also tries to influence the negotiations towards the long term good of the parties involved and also towards the benefit of the societies as a whole. The aiji is too powerful to be a mediator because his voice is stronger than the original parties’. He can arbitrate, but he is the aiji full-time and he couldn’t mediate disputes within the association or between Atevi and outside entities. In the second place, if another Ateva were to win the aijinate, Caijeiri would be unlikely to retain such a high and semi-independent office because the new aiji would view the presumptive heir as far too dangerous a rival if he were to be allowed to remain in that position.
I did propose in earlier discussions that Caijeiri could be usefully employed as a mediator between the humans and the Atevi (and possibly also the Kyo and the ‘Kif’, though they would also need Bren, I think), at least for a while. He could even work as a second mediator, handling tricky situations while Bren is engaged in something else (the job of paidhi is really too big for one person, though Bren is unique and will always be invaluable). Such a responsibility would have the benefit of keeping Caijeri occupied during Tabini’s long (I hope!) reign. What else would he do with himself, apart from make visits to various relatives? That wouldn’t satisfy him.
However, once Caijeri became aiji, one could not see him acting as mediator as well – for one thing, he would be far too busy and would need to be seen to be working solely for the Atevi.
Respectfully, Nandii, are not roles of aiji and paidhi mutually exclusive? Caijeiri’s wiring would not let him bow to anyone else’s service, as we have seen Bren so skillfully do while still maintaining his loyalties (but what a tightrope! did anyone else gasp aloud when he said “Aiji-ma” to Machigi?) (please forgive misspellings, not near my books at the moment).
Humans are the adaptable ones. THAT is our secret strength. Although certain Atevi, being creative and certainly intelligent, may learn a cautious adaptability now that the “guardrails” of conduct have been built (and paid for in blood), I believe that humans, as a whole, are, as a race, better negotiators; the likes of the Hanks’ family notwithstanding.
I wonder how closely the attitudes of the pilots’ guild reflect the attitudes of our Earth in that timeline? As a mental exercise, I find myself wondering what would have happened if somehow the Atevi had beat the humans to space and wound up lost here instead?
Yes, I think you are right. I would agree that the two roles are actually mutually exclusive, particularly because of Caijeiri’s wiring. This will become more evident as he grows up (refer, for instance, to what is said at the beginning of Deliverer, when Bren is thinking precisely about the need for Caijeiri to disconnect from his human contact if he is to remain a sane Ateva, let alone become aiji).
However, I cannot see any human who would be even remotely able to do the job Bren is doing. He is really special in that respect – a genius in fact.
That was a great moment when Bren said ‘Aiji’ma’ to Machigi! 🙂
“Human influence” is still an issue among certain of the tashrid. Cajeiri will have to be extremely persuasive/attractive to get past that. His future sibling, explicitly going to be given different educational path than Cajeiri’s, will *probably* be more politically acceptable. If, in the fullness of time, she becomes the aiji, Cajeiri has options outside of the Association. Administering the station. Captaining the first atevi starship — it *is* going to take a long time to build — or failing that, the second or third. If he stays planetside, he’d take over the role ‘Sidi-ma currently occupies, the unofficial “second head” of government, visionary, perpetual “outsider”, and covert intervention mechanism. Call it the Malguri tradition.
If Cajeiri becomes aiji, because of a clear need for better interface with humans, well, she will have grown up in a world with more human involvement. She may be as useful in that regard, she may be scarfed up by anti-human reactionaries and become the standard-bearer for that side. I give that 50/50, baji-naji. I can easily see him being unwilling to assassinate her, after spending her formative years protecting her, and her contuinally trying to get Guild action against him.
She might end up as Captain of one of the future starships, if she can’t find a place in the tashrid. It would be folly to guess at the virtues or vices of one who isn’t even born yet. Field Too Large.
Do we know that the sibling is going to be female? I didn’t think we did.
The future sibling will not have Cajeiri’s experience in contact with the humans and Kyo, which would really be incredibly useful for the aiji to have at this stage in Atevi history. The mother has also said that she will want to keep the sibling away from Bren’s influence (and Ilisidi’s).
I don’t really think it would be an option for the sibling to become aiji in Cajeiri’s place. It is certainly something he would be very much against, and Ilisidi, among others, has raised him to become aiji.
I trust the moment when he will take over from Tabini is a long, long way away – unless Tabini decides to retire, or to go off to space with Bren, or something.
Cajeiri would be a natural for being captain of the first Atevi starship. We have seen him enthralled with flying including space navigation. A million adventures await with Bren along as paidhi for cultures they may encounter. What about that threat beyond the Kyo? Tabini who almost has the Atevi world united thanks to Ilisidi’s aid still has a long career ahead of him. The role for the daughter is wide open.
As ever I am impressed with the staying power of this series.
Sapphire, in Intruder Damiri asks Cajeiri if he wants a sister and then asks if he will protect her, so the second child is a girl. What I find interesting is that Cajeiri regarded the sibling as a potential rival in the earlier books, but once he finds out that the baby is a sister, his attitude changes. Why, I wonder, does the child’s gender make a difference to Cajeiri? Anybody have some speculations? CJ? Or perhaps this reason is to be revealed as the story develops?
Cajeiri regards himself as the heir. Under what circumstances would he choose to take another role? Starship captain, interstellar diplomat–these do seem reasonable roles, given his upbringing and predilections, but his atevi instincts–whatever it is that makes an aji an aji–may foreclose against these other choices.
Imjsc: you say humans are the adaptable ones. . .That’s what the regul concluded in CJ’s Faded Sun series, or rather, a regul concludes that humans always send one person out to live among the “alien” culture in order to understand that culture from the inside. It’s a theme in CJ’s books. . .
Here’s a possibility: Cajeiri and Baby Sister form an alliance, in much the way Illisidi and Tabini are allied, or, to use the terminology of CJ’s Mri, Cajeiri will be the Face that Looks Outward while Baby Sister manages the home front. The changes in the universe–the presence of ship humans, the kyo and the Mysterious Others–may trigger a change in atevi political structures.
When Bren retires, Cajeiri may be just the person to inherit his title of Lord of the Heavens.
(changed my name from lmjsc (unpronounceable, even in ragi!) to Limari, which could hopefully pass for a name for an ateva)
Perhaps the unasked-for presence of humanity on the world of the Atevi (I can’t remember – is there a word in ragi which stands for their homeworld, like Earth is for us?) will actually save the otherwise xenophobic Atevi from a mri-like fate. I was terrified by the inability of the mri to learn from their mistakes, which destroyed so many worlds and assumably 100’s of billions of people, all so one ragtag race of beings can keep their sacred sameness. *shiver*
It’s nice to think that the Atevi would be able to have MORE success because of the sacrifice(s) they’ve made (by giving up Mospheira to the humans). It brings to mind a chilling thought that I know CJ has touched on briefly in the last few books. Currently, we’re at the point in history where the atevi and humans are nearly on par technologically … now that the humans have nothing left to hand out, what is protecting them on their little island? The threat of the Phoenix high above? And what about the day when Atevi have their own ship, perhaps even a better ship? If the ajii-ship goes to an ateva who is not inclined to preserve the human presence, what then? Force them to build a huge colony ship and depart? The treaty which defines relationships between the two races is now outdated; I hope Bren gets another one into place before long!
Limari, I suspect you may be mis-remembering how Faded Sun ends: It was not the mri which destroyed the homeworlds-of-convenience, it was always other species who were afraid of the mri–just as the regul tried to destroy all mri both at Kesrith and Kutath. Melein (and Ras says this to the humans when Flower returns to Kesrith) says this explicitly in the third book.
Answer, at least partially: Cajeiri is being a bit manipulated. He’s often combative with his mother, but he’s a sucker for ‘soft’ approaches, ie, when his mother is nice to him. He’s asked to protect his sib, which is exactly the right tack to take with him: this offers him, mentally, a point of superiority, and he’s a bit ‘thrown’ by the realization it will be a sister, which is a different kind of person than he had been imagining—it somewhat rearranges his mental image of a brother magically as old as himself and just like himself. Being a little baby’s protector is a whole different role, and besides, puts him in charge. He likes that idea. So he’s sort of trying to take that role. It would be a cruel turn of fate if he ends up having to corral a child as wild as himself.
LOL, can’t wait to see that!
Thanks, CJ I look toward to the baby’s advent even more.
Even more than than, I look forward to more of Tano and Algini, Banichi and Jago, Tabini and Machigi, i.e. the enigmatic adult Atevi, as well as Bren of course.
I’d particularly like to see what develops with Algini and who he really is (Guildemaster?), though the enigma in all these characters is partly what makes them so attractive…
I am not all that keen on a story involving too much about children, as you may have gathered. 🙂
Jcrow9: No, I’m not misremembering. At first read, I thought as you did, the mri were just innocent catalysts for the greedy, destructive bents of all those civilizations they encountered on the way. After a careful re-read and lots of thought, I’ve reached a conclusion that paints the mri (no matter how we admire them) in a less favorable light: The keepers of their history, knowing (during the times of Dark) what their presence does to the worlds they enter, do it anyway. In essence, the mri’s right to exist as they are and never evolve further into a different sort of existence/government/religion trumps the rights of all those civilizations. They are a weapon, but sapiently so. Knowingly so. They cannot change, cannot imagine any different way. They are worse than a weapon, they ARE death. No world survives, even the plant life is gone. For the mri, it is their way or no way. They recognize no other culture or way as valid. Even their partner race, the Elee, get no respect. The last vestiges of the Elee: their precious art, talents, buildings – even their very lives, mean next to nothing to the mri and are almost casually destroyed.
After the mri encounter humanity it is the human Duncan who has to do all the changing to match steps with them. The series ends, not happily, when humans spend the currency of their lifetimes to travel out to where the mri wait, but terrifyingly: these mri, who have left death everywhere, are now going to be partnered with humans. No single civilization has survived the mri’s touch, what makes the reader think that humans will be the first? I couldn’t sleep that night.
Thankfully, the atevi are NOT mri. When Geigi speaks to Bren about friendship, it was a watershed moment. As long as there are ateva like him, and humans like Bren (And Jase) there is hope. 🙂
Sorry, Limari, I don’t buy it.
The mri have (according to the story) never forced themselves on anyone. They’ve always been hired by the other races or species–humanity has the option of saying “no thank you” to the mri offer of their service–and according to Faded Sun, the nature of the service is up to whomever hires them.
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As best I can recall (I’m at work at the moment), the 3rd book ends along the lines of (paraphrasing what I can’t recall clearly, the mri emissaries say to the human leaders, ‘We are explorers, we are the Face That Looks Outward.’)
“We are a sharp sword to part the Dark for you.”
“To fight for us?”
“If that is the nature of the service.”
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Is it possible that the mri always rewrite the truth in their records? Of course, but in that case the entire species (and story) is a lie.
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Elee were the first species to hire the mri, they sent them out and received back planets and riches. Abbotai does not deny Melein’s account of this. At the ending, all the elee want is for the mri to go away and die somewhere else, in hopes that the tsi’mri will go away.
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The mri that travel back to Kesrith in Flower understand that the human leaders can just have them shot, or not only refuse their service but also refuse to take them back to Kutath. Shon’ai!
Dang! Hit ‘Post’ too soon.
I meant also to say, the mri always require a planet where only they and the hiring species stand. Those are the homeworlds-of-convenience, those are the planets which have been destroyed one by one, right down to the growing things; they are not (or at least are not necessarily) homeworlds of the hiring species. Remember that mri chose as the last homeworld-of-convenience Kesrith, rather than a green and pleasant planet. Intel called it “The Forge of the People.” It was not the regul homeworld.
Honorable Jcrow9, I love a good debate! TY! 🙂
Respectfully, it doesn’t matter one iota if the worlds which once held living beings [but now are utterly dead] were the exact worlds of the hiring species in question or not. It also doesn’t matter if it was the mri who pulled the trigger first, or second, in all of those cases. It only matters that it happened repeatedly, without fail, and that the mri were the catalysts to all that death. Sure, we can blame the Elee for being shortsighted in sending the mri out in the first place, but the willful LACK of evaluation on the part of all the she’pani supports my thesis entirely. The willingness, the very ability, to adapt (to imagine differently) seems to be a gift best possessed by humanity. We would call any human group of mercenary soldiers, bent on any mission similar to the one handed to the mri, strongly to task; we would not excuse them for merely following orders. We would expect better of them, expect them to change, develop some sort of parameters or modus operandi which allows them to survive (even in wartime) without provoking mutual annihilation. Wouldn’t we?
So where do the Atevi fit in on the adaptability scale? And, scary thought, the Kyo? Atevi have shown that they can adapt, although it turns dangerous when things go against their internal wiring. I wonder (and it is a pleasant thought) if the Atevi as a race have become more adaptable as a result of their world-sharing experience and will this experience, in the end, ultimately help or even SAVE the world? As for the Kyo, from what we learned from Prakuyo, we have hope that a lasting peace can be achieved, but probably a big ditto on the internal wiring issue. Perhaps the Kyo will be similar to the Regul in that, once a change is made, it stays with them? The Kyo seem to be the race with big staying power on this side of the universe.
And lastly, a question just for the sake of stirring up: Out of all the races presented to us in CJ’s books, is there a race MORE able to imagine/adapt than humanity?
(And thanks to our favorite author for providing so many delicious flavors of “people” to enjoy! It’s a mega, all-you-can-eat buffet for the imagination!)
I also enjoy debating and ‘what-iffing’ with our favorite author’s worlds, Limari-ji. It had occurred to me that I might have come across as a bit abrupt in our discussion so far, and am glad that you saw my comments as I meant them–a wish for discussion, not as a confrontation.
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I love CJ’s multifarious flavors of people. I have sometimes described them as “fish out of water” stories, with Bren (of course), as well as Sten and Tully as perhaps the leading examples that come to mind, and agree that the adaptability of humans is one of CJ’s central and enduring themes–and just as well, given the situations they find themselves in!
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You make good points about the mri’s seeming inability to waver from their course, and yet it seems to me that it’s a sort of slippery slope. Do you really think that the mri (or any species) should bear the responsibility of changing their essential nature to keep other species from doing Bad Things(tm)?
We are privileged to see inside Melein’s and Niun’s heads, and they clearly recognize that the mri people may not survive (as far as they know at the time, pre-Kutath, they ARE the last of their species; it is not as if the two of them can repopulate the species by themselves) but they will not swerve from their path. They will surive as mri, or not at all. Well, a small step back on that–Melein and Niun take a human prisoner, which has never been done. Let’s call that a minor concession at least :-D.
I don’t see that as scary or bad. If humans were put in that situation, very likely some at least would try to change in order to survive, but would that change be a permanent modification to the racial psyche (or whatever you choose to call it), or a way to survive for now and fight back later? I choose to think the answer would be b! Human history certainly suggests it.
The mri are an interesting case; conservatives so extreme they literally split into a separate species.
It’s a while since I’ve read the Faded Sun trilogy, but the overall impression looking at them from a distance, as it were, is that they are rather cold and scary. One certainly didn’t get to know them as a species as we have the Atevi (though they are still quite enigmatic).
I do like the dusei…
Re the Mri: at the series end, it seems as if humankind will give a different answer to the mri question of what use will be made of the Kel: explorers, not soldiers. This opportunity for a different perspective was opened by Duncan and Boaz–and by Melein’s unprecedented willingness to regard tsi’mri. But I always wondered why no species, in the Mri’s long long sojourns, had the courage to just let them go. Limari, I agree–it was anti-survival of the Mri to keep repeating their circumstances, to hire themselves out when they are repeatedly betrayed at the end.
One of the points I love about the Foreigner series is the always relevant, fortunate three-point, question: what is hardwired into the species, what is culture evolving out of that hard-wiring but still subject to modification by intelligence and will, and what is individual personality?
Which leads me to the Kyo. I am wholly uneasy about the Kyo’s belief that what has engaged must remain engaged and that the expected and proper approach to neighbors is to absorb them while the Kyo themselves are not to be included. At least Prakuyo was alarmed at the proposition that the Kyo would be included with the atevi-human “we”–the last pages of Explorer. It seems a bit of an oxymoron–remain engaged but not associated. Distinct while absorbing? How would that work? Am I stating the problem correctly? Heaven help atevi and humans if the kyo have a touch of the Borg philosophy.
Atevi will resist absorption. The human adaptive strategy is to send an envoy to be absorbed and who will then function as a bridge. The kyo send an envoy then wait patiently on events.
All three species seem to be hierarchical in their hardwired social arrangements(Octavia Butler’s Xenogenesis trilogy posited that a hierarchical nature coupled with intelligence was humanity’s fatal flaw–there’s another perspective!). All three species appear to have members capable of meeting the Other without reflexive xenophobia as well as influential members of the species capable of immediate rejection of the Other. Can’t wait to find out what the mysterious and powerful fourth species will add to the mix.
Rigel: you always put things in such an interesting way, and with so much insight.
The Kyo are still largely mysterious to us – heaven help the Atevi if they are at all like the Borg! I can’t wait to see what develops off the planet, and whether the Atevi will get their spaceship and go careening off into the wilds of space. Will Ilisidi go to space again? Will Machigi get there? I’m assuming Bren and Jase (along with Kaplan and co), and perhaps Gin, Ogun and Sabin, will be involved in the next episodes in space.
And yes, that sinister-seeming fourth species is interesting. It would be funny if it turned out to be the ‘lost’ Earth humans from the other end of the universe…
Thanks, Sapphire. Don’t these books just get one’s intellectual faculties in gear?
Now, that’s an amazing possibility you raise here–that the Mysterious Fourth species is–us! That would mean, of course, that great technological change has occurred on Earth and/or that the kyo have never laid eyes on this “new” species–otherwise Prakuyo and company would surely have recognized the technology of the station they sent their envoy to nor been so surprised by Ramirez and Bren. But talk about a plot twist–that would be a doozy!
Limari, in response to your question about are there other species in CJ’s worlds as adaptable as humanity. . . what about the shonunin of Cuckoo’s Egg and the ma’hendo’sat of the Chanur series?
That’s a great phrase you have there–“the willingness, the very ability to adapt (to imagine differently).”
In two of CJ’s books, humankind changed a species significantly: the calibans of Forty Thousand in Gehenna and the majat of Serpent’s Reach. In both these books, the interaction with humans caused two species to “imagine differently.”
So much for the Prime Directive!
De-Lurking after several months of following. I am a reader of the Foreigner Series and truly enjoyed your work. My wife and daughter are the writers in the family so please excuse my feeble attempts.
I also look forward to the continuing insights into the industry and I know it will help in getting her second book published.
Thank you.
Welcome!
I’ve just finished listening to all the audio books and I loved them! I’d forgotten a lot of stuff, especially in the last 3 or 4 books. Am excited for April 2013!
Oh, and I LOVE the narrator! He sounds just like I imagined Bren would start.
OOps! I meant he sounds just like I imagined Bren would sound! That’s what I get for multi-tasking.
Audio – now that might be a way to while away the time until (yawn!) the next book is published early next year.
As I posted earlier elsewhere on these boards, I’ve taken to rereading James White’s hospital books, which are fun and quite ‘Golden Age’, although I think better than many books from that era. There is so much ‘goodness’ in those stories…
Protector is available for pre-order on Amazon, yet without cover image. I just placed my order there, it should arrive in the beginning of April, 2013. Still 5 month to go…
There’s what looks like a rough draft of the jacket for Protector on http://www.risingshadow.net. There’s a nice image of one of the spacecraft and of an Ateva, with Bren in the foreground.
There are also several small figures that look like children. Will the book deal with children a lot, or will the story be mainly about adult Atevi and Bren and their continuing adventures?
Direct link to the book on risingshadow: http://www.risingshadow.net/library?action=book&book_id=37832
@Sapphire: I took the link and saw the cover…but in the summary text, it says that Cajeiri is approaching his EIGHTH birthday celebration!!!! EIGHTH? How could they be in possession of information so very incorrect? And how can we get it fixed?? (My inner – Ateva sense is positively vibrating with indignation!)
🙂
Well, you could always try posting on that website. 🙂
For myself, I am hoping there is not too much about children (misbehaving, getting up to pranks, etc, which I would find rather tiresome, not being very interested in children myself), but that Bren and the adult Atevis’ story progresses. My preference is generally for hard SF combined with character development, which CJ does so brilliantly
That’s the blurb that the publisher is sending out to everyone as part of their pre-publication promotion ***sigh***. I got it corrected to the properly felicitous ninth birthday in all the versions (print, online, and marc) of my own company’s winter 2012/2013 catalogue of forthcoming books, so there’s at least one description out there that’s right (even if it is only going to be seen by a small pool of buyers). 🙂