I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
There is a very strong clan structure. Adherence to morality is enforced within the clan. You don’t want to embarrass your clan, you don’t want to annoy your lord, and you don’t want to disgrace the name. If there’s an interpersonal fuss, clan lords meet, discuss, and settle it. If there’s no resolution, the matter can go to the aiji. And anybody who feels they have to exit their clan structure for a different decision CAN go to the aiji, but that can get messy.
Theft? Consider Baiji, who sold some of his uncle’s porcelains. It happens. Petty crime can happen, but a clan that condones it would be very foolish: the clan will likely make the loss good and then take it out of the hide of the perpetrator, who will lose trust, and status. On the other hand, the clans are also the support system, so if you suffer a loss, say, a fire, they will help you rebuild; they take care of their own social needs, care for elderly folk and orphans, that sort of thing. It’s a strong system, and the aishidi’tat serves as a clan of clans, that keeps the larger Associations in line and does interclan building projects, like the railroads. The Guilds are a parallel system, composed of members of many clans, and they support the aishidi’tat and the aiji, doing what no single clan can do.
Things that go to the Assassins’ Guild? That distinction may become clearer in the book I’m working on now.
Things that go to the Assassins’ Guild? In a book named Peacemaker, following a book named Protector? I can only assume that someone does a bad, bad thing, somewhen in there. It occurs to me that stationers would have to apply to the Assassins’ Guild to take care of anything to do with the grounded kids and native evil-doers. Whatever that might be. Food for thought. Thanks, CJ. 🙂
I’ve recently reread the latter half of the series (I tend to get into a foreigner haze, I reread the last book, get drawn into it, and then I start rereading the different arcs, going back in time), and as always it was delicious.
I do stay forever confused about the whole apartment business. Maybe I missed it again, but when exactly does Bren move into the apartment next to Tabini for the first time? Because when he returns from Space, he seems to refer to him staying in Tatiseigi’s apartment, and that not being possible anymore, since the Lord himself will stay there, so he’s a guest at Ilisidi’s. Then Tabini moves in there, Tatiseigi goes to the country and Bren is a guest there again, because the Farai have occupied his apartment.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but is that the first time his own apartment is mentioned?
Is this a continuity error, or am I missing something big here? Because of the way I read, the books tend to melt into one another for me, at best I can recall to which arc a certain incident belongs.
So as far as Brens living arrangements go, this is the best I can do, in order:
The small garden appartment; Tatiseigi’s Bujavid apartment; the space station + ship; Tatiseigi’s Bujavid apartment after a short stay at Ilisi’s; Brens Country estate, Brens own Bujavid Apartment next to Tabini.
As far as I understand from the later arcs, somewhere in the first 6 books Bren must get the country estate and the Bujavid apartment, since he refers to the estate in book 8, and we learn in the later books that the Farai occupied his apartment during the Troubles. But I’m forever confused as to when that happens.
All help dearly appreciated!
It seems that we are missing a stage — maybe misattributed to Uncle — when Tabini-aiji is first (scandalously!) shacking up with Damiri-daja. Bren is placed in (what I thought was) *Damiri’s* apartment, adjacent to the aiji’s, with her staff. This is where Bren first becomes acquainted with the estimable Saidin-nadi (and is later shocked to learn her previous employment). At least I *thought* the Atageini staff to be Damiri’s, it was nearly all-female, and horribly embarrassing for Bren, at least initially. It wouldn’t make sense for Uncle to have that kind of staff, we never see any other woman associated with him, no wife or daughter. Only ‘Sidi-ma dares the scandal of having comely members of the opposite sex for her Guild entourage.
Of course now, we have a whole host of other names, such as the disgraced Adsi-nadi, along with the rest of Damiri’s *Ajuri* staff. But that could be explained as displacements of Atageini staff in favor of Ajuri staff, starting at the aftermath of the hedge-wrecking battle at Uncle’s estate. We know at least, that Saidin survived, and it seems to me Bren recently reacquianted with other familiar persons of that staff, which blows the notion that maybe they had been casualties of the coup.
So, Damiri should not feel completely bereft; Saidin-nadi and her staff should be of at least some familiarity to her.
that was the first stage, Xheralt, as I said, Bren is allocated the Maladesi apartment between the first and the second trilogy!
I get the impression that Bu-javid appartments belong to clans rather than individuals. The staff will be based around the higher-up individual(s) most using the apartment. Thus, at the start, Uncle Tatiseigi spends most time at the Atageini estate, and Damiri is the one primarily using the Bu-javid Atageini appartment; the female staff is hers. When Damiri moves in with Tabini, she can’t take her Atageini (and maybe some Ajuri) staff with her, but leaves them to take care of Bren when she allows him the use of the Atageini appartment.
Then when they get back from space, and the Farai are in Bren’s Maladesi apprtment, he would see the Atageini appartment he stayed at before as his first alternative – except Uncle Tatiseigi is occupying it himself. If Uncle stays for long, he’ll probably exchange some servants with the estate, bringing in more men, though maybe not replacing madam Saidin, who knows the appartment best.
Having some of those familiar faces around her would probably be a comfort to Damiri, but considering the on-again, off-again tensions between Ajuri and Atageini, her Ajuri relatives would probably oppose that strenuously. And the original high security concerns that wouldn’t let Tabini allow her to bring in more that a very few Atageini women when she moved in with him are probably still a concern, with the leaky Atageini security.
It would bring some political balance to Tabini’s new guards, after he went over to only Taibeni; and a balance to the Ajuri influence on Damiri, but as she’s been uncertain and on edge lately, I’m not sure how much divergence she could tolerate that closely around her at the moment.
I am just reading Precursor, when Bren goes to to the space station for the first time. at that point he has the apartment which used to belong to the Maladesi, and the seaside estate. this was all set up in the 3 year gap between the end of the first trilogy and the beginning of the second – the time it took to build the first shuttle and get it up and flying and more or less tested
Thank you! I guess it’s harder to remember things when you don’t see them actually happen, but rather hear of them after a jump in time.
And the Maladesi apartment is the one the Farai claim and won’t get out of: they claim to be the heirs of the Maladesi.
Thank you for elaborating!
The whole thing got me terribly confused, and it can be so frustrating when you focus on something and aren’t able to figure it out.
I’m still a bit confused by Brens reaction when they arrive back in the Bujavid after the Troubles, because he seems to focus on the loss of Tatigeini’s apartment more than the loss of his own, and he still feels very at home there when he returns, but then again, he did stay there quite a long time.
I also realized while typing up the above that Bren moved around quite a bit, almost as much as Cajeiri, and I think that’s why my insecurity on this subject frustrated me so much. Because there’s a lovely parallel in Intruder where they are both so happy to finally feel at home somewhere, and to feel safe again, and that really hit home with me. I do hope for the both of them that they can feel safe and at home for a while now.
On a sidenote, now that I’ve found the courage to comment, can I just say that for a series with an alien species which is wired differently when it comes to emotions, the emotional impact of subtle things can be quite grand. It’s one of the main things why I love and admire this series so much. The hug Tano gives Bren in space, I wept; the first time Algini called Bren aiji-ma, I cried and reread that little scene so many times. So many deep emotions written about in such an understated way, it never fails to move me.
I found that part of [i]Pretender[/i] a bit confusing as well. Near the end of Chapter 8, Bren thinks to himself,
—
Well, damn! The old lord had survived, for which the paidhi could be very grateful; but he had also, always the double-edged good news, taken his apartment back, reclaimed the premises that Lady Damiri had graciously allotted to the paidhi-aiji, along with its staff, and he had nowhere to go, tonight.
—
I always just assumed this was a minor inconsistency (maybe an editing error), since we knew the paidhi had been given an apartment and an estate prior to his spacefaring adventures. 😉 And it put him in close company with Ilisidi for the rest of the book, which gave me no cause to complain!
now I will have to remember to check that when I get to Pretencer again, but in fact, Bren lost his new apartment too, didn’t he, to the Farai, so really did have nowhere to go …. 😀
I’m in Inheritor, so there’s so much still unknown to me. (Cajeiri is somewhere in the future, and they haven’t gotten into space to the station yet, for instance.)
But reading this page of comments, something struck me from personal life.
How do the atevi feel about “home?” — Home is a human concept, and at least in English, we distinguish between “home” as a feeling, belonging with people or a place or both, versus a house or other place as merely somewhere to be. “Home” has a feeling of comfort and usually some tie to place and to a group of family and/or friends.
My current nominal “home” is a strange thing. Much of my time has been away from this house, and in some ways, it feels more like “just a house, someplace to live,” than a home. Other times, it feels like “home,” or close to it. — But it isn’t quite “home” to me, despite that it’s my house. That is a very strange way to feel about it. Possibly it’s because of that lack of time in the house, or the terrible disorganization during all that. (The house is still not in order. I’m not a beatnik, but this is not how I want it to be.) Possibly it’s that I have had few visitors and no one living with me but my cats. It seems like it should feel like home by now. That it doesn’t…well, maybe once I get things done, it will feel more like home. — I had a period of years where I was moving daily between my place and my grandmother’s, and before that, in the moving process, out of my parents’ home. And it was odd, the home I grew up in, and my grandmother’s home, felt like home. A temporary home, before my parents and I moved into their new home, felt like home. The new home then felt like home, mostly, though that began my adult life. Heck, very strangely, my college dorm room felt like home, something I never did quite figure out. Not all my roommates then felt that welcome, but several did. So a good deal of my adult life has been in and out of “home” in various locations. I do think I’m more “at home” in my present house than I was. (And during my first year or two here, it felt more that way too.)
There are many people who move from place to place due to work or “itchy feet.” They tend to carry “home” with them: “Home” is either mobile or it’s wherever they lay their head, or it’s a home base where they feel comfortable, among friends, family, a crew, that sort of thing.
Other people rely on “home” being a very specific home base, a home or apartment or the like; again, usually with a group of people, but sometimes on their own, living single.
—–
So I wonder about atevi. They have cities, houses, apartments, fine buildings. They have places that are centuries, even millennia, old. Malguri, for instance. At least in the first trilogy, I got the feeling that Ilisidi feels “at home” in Malguri, but she is not always there. Tabini-aiji is primarily in the capitol, but he has other holdings. Ilisidi has other holdings, and exactly how much the two overlap due to family ties, versus individual ownership, I’m not clear on.
That seems to work like any (human) family that can afford more than one house or property. But perhaps there’s more of a case of each person, or family unit, or clan, or aiji, holds lands in common for the group.
So I’ve found myself wondering what atevi feel about “home” or a house or property, since their feelings towards individual people or towards groups of people, are different than human feelings. Atevi have man’chi towards other atevi, flowing upwards towards a leader. Atevi don’t “like” or “love” in the human sense of those words, but atevi do have other strong feelings, man’chi and perhaps others. So what do atevi feel analogous to the human idea of “home”?
(Note that although “home” is the English version, other languages do have some analogue, such as, “chez nous” or “mi casa es su casa.”)
Home crosses up with the word ‘household’ —which is the people. And while Bren’s household shifts, it’s gotten more stable. But he really doesn’t have a huge number of possessions, until he starts to acquire furniture.
There are many instances in which someone leaves a clan—and most of them have to do with the Guilds.
Looking at this again, I see how ironic it is that now I will be preparing to find an apartment for a new home for me and my two cats. In some ways, maybe I will be glad of the move, if the new place comes to feel like home.
I see also it was late Nov. or early Dec. when I started into Inheritor. At least now, I’ve started reading more at my old pace.
Clans among atevi — Most people function within some overall family structure, even if it’s a created family or an analogue like a crew or classmates or office mates. But what if someone is thrust outside of the usual clan structure? That might be by their own choice, willingly, or by someone else’s choice, unwillingly. Things like marriage, raising of children, care of the elderly, training for a career, or interpersonal ties (not sexual or romantic, but man’chi or other atevi ties) might all come into play there. Or disagreements or agreements might affect clan membership. Or disputes leading to voluntary or involuntary placement outside the clan. That could be very interesting, story-wise.
For comparison, in the Chanur series, we have several hani who, one way or another, have altered clan status. There are the Immune clans, blackbreeches, with protected status to guard special resources and provide needed social functions. There are the Hermitages where adolescent and adult males go because of hani biological and cultural reasons to do with mating and territory and perception of male emotions. There are cases where persons or clans might be outlawed for some reasons. There are Challenges, usually involving who will become the clan Lord, but probably also about the women leading. There are other disputes involving customs or personal disputes, probably. Then there are cases where a man or woman might have a personal dislike over some issue or person, and so that man or woman strikes out on his or her own and may join another clan, or perhaps choose to stay outside a clan. For example, Geran and Chur had some dispute with their clan Anify and chose to go down the road to their cousin-clan Chanur, and thus joined the crew of the Pride.
Hmm, aside from a summary of hani clan customs, that might have some useful comparison for atevi clan life. Or perhaps it might get a certain author thinking about Compact space doings again…. 😉 (Ever hopeful….)
hmmm – just read this – http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Fast20XX_research_project_ideas_for_travelling_at_hypersonic_speed_999.html – why do we still have to have the rocket launch when the atevi have a nice civilised takeoff style launch?
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Arctic_town_eyes_future_as_Europes_gateway_to_space_999.html
now this sounds much more like your idea of things, CJ!
I’ve been wondering about the evolution of the atevi. The man’chi instinct points to a very rigid pack structure in thier pre-sentient past, more so than Earth wolves, whose leadership can change instantly with a fight, or even threat of a fight. Yet thier prefered method of warfare, assasination, would indicate they evolved from ambush preditors.
On Earth, I cannot think of a pack hunting ambush preditor. Lions come close but not exactly there. Do the atevi have any interest in anthropology(of coarse it wouldn’t be “anthro”pology.)along with thier passion for geneology?
In Jurassic Park, the Veloceraptor is depicted as a pack hunter. Whilst it isn’t proved that they Hunted together, there was evidence in fossel evidence that they Had travelled together in groups of about half a dozen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor
I think the strongest hint we get about the evolutionary background for man’chi is the behavior of the mecheiti. They seem to have very established herd/pack leaders, but it would seem that challenges are possible. Nokhada never seems to want to get very far from Babsidi, just in case an opportunity presents itself. Or maybe it’s just that if Nokhada can’t be first, she certainly isn’t going to settle for anything less than second. In any case, mecheiti do seem to fight in packs. It is only internally that they seem to engage in duels… and they don’t seem to favor ambush. Atevi can and will fight in groups, as we saw at Tirnamardi. I think the atevi disposition to assassination comes from their interest in going straight for the leader of the opposition, rather than preferring to fight as a group. In mecheiti, we would expect to see a tendency to conflict between the leaders of two different herds, rather than whole herds in melee. I don’t think we’ve quite seen the circumstances to illustrate this. It would be interesting as an inclusion in a future book.
From what I remember, the Assassins Guild and assassination in general as a way to solve problems is a fairly recent development in atevi society. (I think it is even said that the Assassins Guild was just starting to come together around the time of the Landing, a sort of “new order” thing).
Before that, atevi practiced blood feud and violent war which, like with a wolf pack, changed (or didn’t) because of the aiji’s tendency to lead the pack (be at the fore of the charge). One well placed arrow or spear thrust, the aiji bites it, and the war is over or another aiji-inclined personage takes his place (but after a suitably confusing period, as people figure out what has happened, and that they now have to reconsider where they stand in the world now that their aiji is dead.)
There are also those stories Bren has heard, of mass killings (the archers in the shadows, mowing down a table full of unsuspecting diners; the poisoned barrel of wine that killed off the entire court of the sister fortress to Malguri, etc.)
What this means for their evolutionary ancestors and their behaviors, I don’t know. But it is fun to think about. 🙂
If youve ever seen crows ‘mobbing’ other birds then you will recognize that as well as being scavingers, they can also operate in groups for co-ordinated attack.
Here I am, just checking to see if anybody’s posted. . . I’m getting impatient for the next book in the series!
I hate to say—I think I’ve got a small box of them sitting in my living room… So release date is getting close.
I don’t think I can stand the thought of it.
If I lived anywhere near you I would resort to shameless begging.
I’m at the top of the wait list at my local library when they get the first copies in. And they have 3 on order.
I’m with Joel, all the way. I’m sure it’d go something like this:
*knock knock* so…need any help with the garden today, CJ? Painting the trim? Washing your windows…no, no…no need to thank me, I just thought I’d come over to …HEY! Is that the NEW BOOK??
*grin* Shameless is definitely the word.
Just one light bulb! I promise, in the morning, I’ll be gone, and you’ll never be able to tell which one I read!
I’ll bring my Itty Bitty Book Light. Just needs 3 AAA batteries, no need to run up your electricity bill.
Hm… how not to get thrown out like Mona and Taigi…. “May one have the honor of sharpening your skates, nandi?” No, those have edges. Not a good choice. “One has just received a shipment of first flush Darjeeling, and wished to offer…” no, bad precedent there, and Darjeeling *does* contain alkaloids….
Ah! I shall send a porcelain vase in an unmarked case! That’s sure to arouse her curiosity! (What kind of porcelain does the Lady Author favor, does anyone know?)
Nekokami, you must meet my owner, O Tetsu Neko! I should think either celadon or imari, though never having talked with Herself, nor, as far as I know, having seen her in person, that’s pure guesswork…. What do the Chinese call those small desk ornaments carved of jade? The scholar’s retreat? respite? vacation? Foul Bribery worked on my children. That encourages me to try it in other situations!
I think you mean “The Four Treasures of the Study”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Treasures_of_the_Study
I’d make a message cylinder, but by the time I finish it and get it to Herself, the book will be on my iPad. 😉
Actually, the timing is good. I’ll have finished teaching my double-section of statistics by then… I would be horribly conflicted about wanting to read when I should be grading, otherwise!
Actually, more like this: http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/archives/scholar/index.shtml But still “Treasures of the Scholar.” There’s probably another word specifically for the ornamental pieces, though. It’s escaping me at the moment.
Heheh, y’all are awesome. My pre-order says April 2nd shipping, though such and the ebook have been known to arrive earlier than stated.
I have a note that the paperback of Intruder comes out on April 5th, just after the release of Protector in hb and ebook. I think my source was from a post by CJC here on the blog, but I didn’t note the citation. I don’t yet see an Intrude pb available for pre-order from Amazon, however.
April 2nd is now less than 40 days away!
I’m positively vibrating with anticipation.
Like Nekokami, I teach, and April is semester’s end with all its attendant “Gotta do’s” and stacks of essays and deadlines and “hair-on-fire” and “I know I went over this!” and conferences with students–but if the book comes out in the midst of all this, well, hey, I will probably fit all that stuff around my reading of the new installment. Some things are Simply Irresistible.
I just noticed that next year is the Twentieth Anniversary of the publishing of Foreigner. Any special events to look forward to?
Could you tell us Damiri’s daughter’s name on April second, since it’s kind of her birthday?
Hello, all–I’ve been re-reading the series and, having gotten into _Precursor_, I have a question. At some point, Bren explicitly thinks/states that Jago and Banichi have transferred (wc?) their man’chi to him. But I couldn’t recall that formally happening in the first arc. I’ve leafed back through the first three books, thinking that I just missed it (I’ve had a flu-like bug, and might not have been at my best). But I couldn’t find what I recalled, which was (perhaps incorrectly) that all four of Bren’s atevi security staff told him explicitly after a big shake-up in the Assassin’s Guild.
Am I totally confused (as usual), or does it really happen later? I was just caught off guard by Bren’s statement, which I just didn’t recall.
Frustrating weekend- had an email on Friday to say the book had been dispatched and should arrive on Saturday. Waited all day but nothing came- this country grinds to a halt in an inch or two of snow. It was here when I got home this afternoon – just finished it- enjoyed it very much.