I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
I don’t see a description of Bjorn, nor do I remember one. Deliverer has descriptions of the other 3 in Chapter 6, right after Cajeiri has his little incident at the paidhi’s office and has to be escorted back to his rooms by Banichi. But we do have this description of Gene: ” suddenly, in his mind, he had seen Gene’s face, with his pale skin, not unpleasingly brown-speckled across the nose, his eyes, a remarkable muddle of gray, green, and blue– his hair, which was brown and dark, and curled generally out of control–”
I do tend to notice these things and would be more than happy to help with continuity checking. Or could we help with a wiki or other reference? We’ve noted a few other changes from book to book… Damiri’s mother was originally from Ajuri, and her father from Atageini, for example. In this latest book… how can I say this without spoilers… Tatiseigi and a previously mentioned character meet and seem not to recognize one another, when there is no way they could have forgotten their previous meeting. I’ve started a wiki, actually, with the intent of putting together lineage trees, timelines, etc., and I’d put a lot more effort into it if I knew it would be helpful to The Author. 😉 The current page is http://shejidan.wikia.com/wiki/Shejidan_Wiki
Regarding the ‘continuity’ meeting you mentioned – if I’m guessing right about what you’re referring to, I read that as T. met him in his previous function (and wasn’t very polite to him), so on renewed acquaintance he is introduced by his new function, which emphasises the increased respect due to that function. In effect, it gives them a chance to start off on a new footing, without previous unfortunate occurences cluttering the reception.
Thus, not a continuity issue (it would be quite a glaring one, involving an entire incident, if it was that, and CJ isn’t prone to those!), but done deliberately.
I hope that’s clear without being a spoiler, and helps?
I don’t remember any descriptions of Bjorn either. Sorry. A wiki would be great. I’m sure the fans would gladly have it bulging at the seams in no time. Does Dune have a wiki? (I never thought to look.) Dune was epic, but so is this.
The discontinuities don’t bother me much. Things like Damiri’s parents swapping clans can be blamed on what Bren thought was true at the time. Bren or Cajeiri, since they’re the only two points of view we’ve seen so far. (Another would be nice, someday. Maybe one of the kids? Just a thought.) Irene’s change of complexion could be attributed to Cajeiri thinking of her as pale, but only compared to Atevi. Funny, how my mind automatically tries to resolve the mismatches by coming up with something to bridge the gap. I honestly don’t think I’m trying to make excuses for CJ, in case anyone thinks I’m kissing up. 😉
Thank you, nekokami and Limari, for being all over the Irene thing. Glad to know I’m not the only one who noticed. And thanks to you, Acarlberg, for finding that line so fast. Awesome. 🙂
I’m eager to hear Isharell’s “squee” moment, and to share mine. How much longer must we endure this insufferable silence on a subject we all hold dear? Have we already talked about business at table? One wishes to be kabiu, but I’m fit to bust. 😀
I didn’t notice the continuity issues, myself. And it doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the series at all.
The think I might like the idea of a dark skinned Bjorn, if I’m reading that right. He’d be a lot more interesting, all of a sudden. Exotic and still mysterious, since he stayed behind. Am I reading that right?
The four captains were Ramirez, Ogun, Sabin, and Tammun (sp?). Jase replaced Ramirez. I can’t recall who took Tammun’s place.
Nothing to do with the current topics, I’ve been thinking about statues. I can’t remember any statues in Atevi art. How would they react if some Mospheiran wanted to build a set of statues of Tabini, Damiri, and Cajeiri, plus Ilisidi and Bren?
I’m assuming the artist would be aware of Atevi sensibilities, striving to arrange the sculpture so that each piece could be seen as a singularity, yet part of a greater set. If it was me, I’d try to work it so that Ilisidi is on a macheita, Boji is on Cajeiri’s shoulder like a parrot on a pirate, and Bren is standing there with his arms out in welcome. Something like that, and my next project would be Bren and his aishid. After that, maybe one of the captains and Yolanda. Then one of the president. Maybe start a fad, if it doesn’t violate kabiu. Would statues be kabiu?
That would work… if that’s what the author intended. I didn’t think of that interpretation when I read it, so I guess the intent wasn’t clear.
Sorry, that was a response to Hanneke’s suggestion.
I love the books, and I can certainly see that it’s hard to keep track of all the details 14 books in. Some other authors I know either keep notebooks for this or explicitly rely on fan-built resources to cross check these details. It would be a bit hard for the author to ask questions during writing without potentially giving away plot points, besides which the problem is that the author doesn’t remember that she’s decided something already, and writes a new description or whatever. But a searchable reference would allow us all to help out and would make it easy for Nand’ Cherryh to check facts quickly and easily. 🙂
@nekokami, that’s exactly what we’re working on, in a “Who’s who” database. If you’re (re)reading Foreigner books and want to contribute, the links are at the top of the blog, above the big Wave Without A Shore banner: the last three links.
I’ve not visited the Shejidan wiki myself, but Ongoing projects contains the information on how to log in to the Who’s who database; once you know how it works you can use the last link at the top Who’s who in Foreigner to go directly there. Maybe I should repeat-post GreenWyvern’s instructions for entering the database on that page, to keep things simple. Then CJ could delete the Ongiong Projects page, as almost nobody else seems to use that.
CJ started this after Protector was published, and Peacemaker almost finished, so Irene’s colorchange wasn’t caught in time.
On page 86 of the US hardcover: Error, human influence on Cajeiri, or are “being important… and pretty clothes” in the same class as salads?
Quote: “Maybe it was because she liked being important and being the aiji-consort and having parties and pretty clothes.”
I can’t recall any other instance of a character “liking” anything. They would typically “find it felicitous.”
Might not be a mistake. Or it could be a “translator’s” judgement call, regarding what English word to use for a given Ragi one.
Both salads and pretty clothes are things one enjoys having, in particular or in general: one “likes” them. One doesn’t have man’chi toward them, nor loyalty; nor anything else that is a relationship between people. And that’s what I think is the particular problem with the word “like.” (Or whatever Ragi word Bren mistakenly used, to mean “like,” and which got the “salad” response.)
The other problem I could see with “like” is that Atevi society, at least at the level Bren’s at, seems very formal; and “like” sounds more like casual preference.
Oh, and this is what I get for not submitting my post for an awful long time…
Lol. Happens to me, too.
It might be. But there is a verb for ‘like’ in the sense of ‘enjoy’ or ‘savor’. It just doesn’t fit into the mentality of man’chi, which is an emotional attachment.
[When writing Bet Yeager, I had to caution my at-that-time secretary not to come up behind me, and my language was not fit for polite company; and when writing the atevi, I suspect I can get mentally strange: this can last for months.]
There’s a funny little synchronicity: I picked up “Rimrunners” while going through my second, slower reading of “Protector” –can’t say why I did. I was standing in front of one of my bookshelves admiring my Cherryh collection and “Rimrunners” kind of whispered “Remember me?” “Serpent’s Reach” was right next to it. My hand hovered and “Rimrunners” popped into it. So I am enjoying Bet Yeager at the same time I’m re-enjoying, and more closely reading, “Protector.”
Re the physical features of Irene and other humans: I’ve actually been wondering quite awhile now how humanity can have retained physical diversity in the future. M.A. Foster speaks of this in his novel “Day of the Klesh:” “Otherwise, they (a group of young human men) were similar in skin tone, eye color, hair texture and color, and general shape. Humans were now as uniform as Ler; there was only one race of man, with only minor planetary variations.” If current cultural and historical conditions continue to play out here on Earth(more interracial and inter-ethnic relationships, more migrations and other demographic changes), the planet’s populations will experience quite a bit of mixing, and recessive genes, like blond or red hair and blue eyes, will tend to become much rarer.
But I also “project” which countries are most likely to send citizens into space: currently, Europe, the U.S. and Russia send the most folks into space. Will this change in the future? If not, then more European coloration and features will make sense in this projected future. However, if the nations of the southern hemispheres, Asia and the Pacific Islands, all dark haired, dark-eyed peoples–if these populations go to space, the “complexion” of humanity in space will likely change, unless other, deliberate efforts to retain more physical diversity are undertaken. Would there be early Reseunes?
So, do the gene banks that produce Taylor’s Children also maintain genes for physical diversity? Otherwise, it seems to me that such small populations as the ship and space station populations would very quickly become uniform, with a bias toward darker hair and eyes and “beige” skin tones. The occasional “sport” or “throwback” might appear; these folks would be extremely noticeable in the incredibly uniform environment of ship and station. They would be “exotic” (a word I personally dislike) or they may be perceived as “alien.” Given humanity’s history of dealing with differences within and between groups, I do not have great hopes of best behavior. The xenophobes like Braddock, Tammun and George Barrulin increase my pessimism.
On the other hand, these humans, in their small, fragile, imperiled environments, may have sense enough to cherish all their folk–at least for the most part. Folks, like Tammun and Braddock, who are interested in power will always figure out a way to divide the world into “us” and “them.”
The hints of human physical diversity in Cherryh’s universes always pleases me. I like to think that all of Earth’s populations will be part of the outward migration of the species.
…populations will experience quite a bit of mixing, and recessive genes, like blond or red hair and blue eyes, will tend to become much rarer.
Common misconception, but completely untrue. The only thing that changes “gene frequency” is selection pressure. Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium shows how recessive genes are stable in a population, absent such selection pressure, e.g. “lethals”. It’s a bit like in Thermodynamics when people think they can prove a violation, but all they’ve done is misidentified the boundaries of the system–an accounting error.
For the genes themselves, yeah. And for single-gene traits, mostly yeah. They’ll remain within the population.
However, for traits that depend on multiple genes (such as skin color), mixing *will* change the frequency of particular *combinations.* So I’d expect a nearly uniform, medium skin color, along with a random distribution of eye color and such traits.
Re xenophobes (in Rigeldeneb’s comment): But xenophobes near the Atevi world have a lot better things to go after than human genetic differences: They have actual non-humans (Atevi); and among humans they have major current differences of location and lifestyle (onworld/station/ship).
I expect the far future to have its own ethnic differences (however cordial or otherwise) based on the circumstances of the different popoulations, more than (or instead of) their inheritance from our times.
Nearer futures, single populations, and ideologically driven programs of social or genetic change, of course can change this scenario.
You’ll notice that my people also have mixed names…things like Odysseos O’Brien, Priscilla Kim and Kwanze Delacorte are perfectly possible.
With more widespread travel and trade, we could expect more intermarriage, blending genotypes. Over time, on Earth and then in-system / interplanetary, that would tend to blend or homogenize looks.
But there are also social pressures, including ethnicity and common religion, that might not blend things very fast.
Then there are the competing desires of “wanting to fit in, be like others, be part of the team or group” and “wanting to be unique, individual.”
Everyone likes things with a little variety. Or fashion sense. Or to be pretty or handsome, good-looking. People dye or bleach their hair and style it. They wear contact lenses. They tan. They use cosmetics, paint or dye, and tattoos.
There’s the idea of what we find attractive, pretty, handsome, good-looking physically, besides fashion. Who’s hot, sexy, cute, etc.
So no matter who we are, where we are, when we are, those things still appeal to us. — Is blond hair good-looking? Blue eyes? Brown hair? Brown eyes? — And so on. So someone may choose a partner and expect children with a certain look. (Yes, I know blond hair, red hair, and blue eyes are recessive genes. But people will still get about 1/4 of their children with one of those recessives, if they aren’t masked by other dominant genes.)
I’d expect we’d still have a lot of variety in 500 or 1000 years, though it may appear biologically, naturally, less often.
Good question, though, since something or other will happen.
Sexual competition for the ‘unusuals’ is also likely to be high.
Another potential glitch. Somewhat has been made of asking “who the four Captains of Pheonix are” and I just realized why. In Protector, hc, p. 160, Jase is said to be the “fourth highest authority on the ship”. Shouldn’t he be third? He had fourth seat only while Tammun was still in place; Ramirez’s appointment of Jase to Fourth countermanded Tammun’s appointment of Dresh. With Third vacated by Tammun’s death, and if numbering of seat equals seniority, Jase would (should?) move up to Third, and Fourth (vacant during the Precursor trilogy) *may* have since been filled — that would be a useful and significant bit of datum for Jase to share with Bren — and the newest Captain would be junior to Jase.
Unless they’re still doing the meritocracy thing, where you have to prove what you know by hacking into stuff first?
^—Phoenix
Lol, you’re right, Xheralt. Jase is now third captain.
How is the concept of infinity regarded on the mainland?
Interesting question. Infinity has been conceptualized in antiquity as connected with things that are manifestly cyclic, and applied to time rather than space, except in the sense of ‘goes around, comes around,’ ie, round things. There was for a time a debate on the nature of the earth, as to whether it was round (ergo eternal) or flat (ergo finite)…Round won out. The information about the wider universe has revived certain sectarian debates, but not in an entirely knowledgeable form—The Astronomers are back in high repute, after their centuries of disgrace.
New Question: What sort of Founder Effect is seen in the population of Mospheira/Phoenix?
I found this nifty population calculator, and if there were only 6,000 people sent out to colonize initially, without lots of untoward deaths, you could expect something like ~3 Million Mospheirans.
We know this isn’t the case, however, and there were an unknown number of deaths in the War of the Landing, and we don’t know what sort of genetic diversity departed with Phoenix.
I know that the ship can counter some of the genetic drift that’s going to happen with Taylor’s Children, but even then, it’s a limited set of genes added back in.
On Mospheira I would think that they’re somewhere around late 20th/early 21st century tech, mostly – which would mean that they don’t have the type of genetic manipulation possible that you might see with Reseune’s help.
So the question is – is this genetic drift on anyone’s radar? Are there any odd diseases like fumarase deficiency? Tay-Sachs?
Or were they a strongly differentiated group from the get-go thanks to the UN selection process that got them out there in the first place, and we’re taking it as an article of faith that they’re a rather genetically variegated society?
Just questions that were banging around my head this morning as I was listening to the Foreigner Audiobook last night…
They are genetically varied; were selected not to have any known genetic problems, come from a widely selected background, diversity among the colonists being as highly valued as actual training and skill, since the genetic contribution would outlast any ability, say, to fix the plumbing.
I figured that was the case. Very interesting…I’m trying to think why my thoughts took that turn. Right. Ian Bretano’s commentary about a radiation-stressed population, etc. etc. when he was talking about Ruiz’s suddenly appearing allergies.
Do they have ways to re-introduce genetic variance to prevent the founder effect? Did you have a total number of shipboard colonists and Phoenix crew in mind? (If you’ll indulge my curiosity.)