I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
He’s so beautiful. I love the ears and the bangs.
😀
Is there a release date yet for Intruder? Amazon is saying March 2012 but they are notoriously unreliable about dates.
I Have thoroughly enjoyed having this discourse with others who are as passionate about Foreigner as I am. Or more is most cases. When i first found Cj’s work it was Downbelow station that hooked me into her writing. then it was Merchanters luck, the story about dragons, and then Chanur’s series. How can anyone write a species as repulsive as the Kif and make them seem likable at the end of the series. Only our CJ can. I goobled up every sci fi book that was written by her and absolutely fell in love with the Faded Sun series. I can say i have read it over 15 times now. Of course i am old and the memory is fading fast so it seems like the first time every time.
I just wanted to say that i am a lifelong fan, CJ could write a telephone book and i would enjoy reading it. I have loved reading: Asimov, Clark, Heinlein, Niven, cummings, et al, yet i find their writing paling in comparison to the tension and intrigue that is developed in all of these storylines. No gimmicks of sci fi magic, no unexplained technologies, just plain talk and honest to god dialog both internal and between characters.
I’m gushing so i will stop now.
i’ll just say
Thank you, thank you thank you.
patrick
Wepox, I agree. I’m rereading Foreigner and am halfway through Invader and am enjoying it even more this time through. I am sure I’ve bought almost every book C.J. has written and I’ve loved them all. Haven’t read them all yet, but am working on it. I have a few waiting for me from the Alliance/Union series, absolutely LOVED Cyteen, had to then read Gehenna, have Faded Sun waiting… oh, and Regenesis after Gehenna! I’m a confirmed fan. But love, love, love Bren Cameron, who is only too willing to take too much blame on himself.
Re: covers – I LOVE the picture of Jago on the front of Invader. It makes her beautiful where some of the others make her just big.
I’m just rereading the sequence and have now finished Pretender. It brings back to me how wonderful the sort of ‘middle’ books are (like Explorer as well as this one). I love the action in it – the way it is portrayed. You can almost feel you are on that train, and the atmosphere. In fact the whole crazy, uplifting journey, by bus and train, is fantastic, with all those old lords with their different characters, and Ilisidi and that outrageous car ride, etc. As for Tabini – what a wonderful, hugely powerful and enigmatic figure he is.
I’m guessing Algini was actually Guildmaster (not just someone high up in the Guild). The sinister Gegini perhaps took advantage of the power vacuum while Algini was up in the heavens, to take power for himself. Being so senior in the Guild, Algini could take the decision to assassinate Gegini. There’s also the fact that Tano looks up to Algini and seems to always obey him. We’ll probably never know for sure, but that’s how I see it.
The “dragon” story was 40,000 in Gehenna. Great story, i still wish there was more on that story line.
I am going to go back and reread Chanur’s series.
Yes, Sapphire, I agree that the dynamics between Tano and Algini are very interesting, both are powerful and highly placed in the assassin’s guild but their Man-chi is to Bren. Even then they both seem to be subservient, (Secondary, back up) to Banichi. very interesting dynamics. maybe i’ll reread foreigner instead of Chanur.
I’m up to Inheritor in my reread and highly advise it, Wepox. I like Chanur, but Foreigner is the best. 🙂
Although in Pretender, I believe it is Jago who rather hesitantly tells Bren that Algini’s manchi is only to Tano, which is also interesting. This even made me think that perhaps Tano might have been Guildmaster, though he is ‘sweeter’ and less grim than Algini in character. I don’t get the impression that either of them is subservient to Banichi – but that up to the point when they freed themselves from their Guild responsibilities, they rather often had their own Guild business to attend to, which had little to do with Banichi. In terms of their relationship with Bren, yes, they are secondary back-up to Banichi and Jago.
They are both great characters.
Sorry, Wepox – the above appeared in the wrong place. It was in response to your comment re. Tano and Algini.
I’m almost finished with Inheritor in my reread and have some observations. Bren really does waffle about Barb. Back and forth, back and forth. In #2, Barb doesn’t visit him in the hospital, sends him the cold note that she’s married, then sends note saying she didn’t know, please call me. Then, she calls him, says she’s made a mistake, she loves him, blah blah blah. He’s, thankfully, fed up with that. He also remembers in his ruminations that she always said she didn’t want to be married, didn’t need to be married.
In Inheritor, he thinks about how he NEEDED her when he returned to Mosphiera. Always exhausted from his dealings with atevi. And then he reflects that need isn’t love, and traces his relationship with his mother…. Also his dealings with Jase are almost as bad as with his family. Jase acts absolutely impossible, like a spoiled child for most of the book. Most of the humans he has contact with are truly neurotic, lol. No WONDER he prefers atevi. Banichi and Jago are great and have good personalities.
Also, it seems at times, that atevi have every emotion except LOVE, or liking. It seems man’chi substitutes for all of those… a kind of biological herd instince like the machieta or like geese. When I think of all the chaos that love creates with us, I wonder if this isn’t preferable. 🙂
Also, it’s very interesting to me that Jago and Banichi say that Bren’s face is too transparent where Jase accuses him of no facial expression at all! Atevi are able to observe more subtlety, apparently, and also Bren is able to ‘read’ things in atevi faces.
I love the kid from Dur, who flies the yellow airplane. What a touch.
Random observation: atevi don’t seem to have same sex relationships, or not that I remember at any rate.
Yes, the lordlet from Dur is a great character – as is the lord, his father. I loved the enthusiasm with which he directed the bus driver to chase recklessly after the dowager’s car in Pretender. No wonder his son is so adventurous.
Difficult to say whether the atevi have same-sex relationships – they are so secretive about that side of their lives. I’ve often wondered whether partners in the Assassins Guild ever do.
Atevi may not have ‘love’ – but they certainly seem to show affection, though not overtly (e.g. Tabini and his son). And they have a sense of humour – they are not utterly ‘cold’ beings, merely very restrained and keep much to themselves, certainly as regards their personal lives. (A characteristic I wish many people in our society shared…)
By the way, Sleo – Jase is pretty whiney and rather annoying when he is down on the planet, but really comes into his own when he is back in space, in Explorer. The whininess in the earlier book is perhaps understandable. After all, it must be a huge shock for a human who has always lived in space to come down on a planet, with all the wide-open spaces – quite terrifying, in fact. In addition, he had to cope with the stresses of dealing with an alien species, one he didn’t understand and must have been quite terrifying to him.
Oh, I know. I just finished rereading book 3 – Inheritor, and it’s all explained at the end. All the conspiratorial stuff between Jase and Yolanda because they didn’t know what they’d be getting into when they descended to the atevi earth from the space ship.
I’m amazed at how much I’d forgotten, though, in my reread.
I have been thinking about the series and find myself daydreaming a lot about what i would do in similar circumstances. Bren is a neurotic, self doubting individual in a world of confident and self assured individuals. He sees multiple outcomes from every decision he makes, he is playing a game of 3d chess against a people who know the game intuitively. He comes out pretty well, but exhausts himself with every encounter of any merit. the nuances that are drawn in this series are finessed so well, we bare,y notice them. but they are there to be seen if we are as perceptive as an Atevi in an infelicitous year or a socially attuned human. I on the other hand would be bold and brash, making arbitrary decisions that would complicate situations and embroil everyone in social turmoil. I don’t know if i could be as even tempered and tolerant. i still feel like this is a real man, a person of this world that has lived and suffered as we have. I congratulate CJ on her mastery of character development. no matter the circumstances or storyline, her heroes and villains are real people made of flesh and blood not cardboard.
Yes, I agree, Wepox, about the characters being flesh and bone. And things aren’t black and white, either. Which is perhaps the source of our differences of opinion about Bren’s human (dare I say) associates?
I’m almost finished with Explorer and had forgotten how the tension in that one just doesn’t stop!
And reading them again is just like being with family. 🙂
They are like family and we love to spend time in their world. They are so real to us because they are so very well written. (And I love the 3-D chess comment! That’s exactly what it must be like for Bren!) These are also my “comfort” books for when life gets a bit tough. Using the – as Poirot would say – “little grey cells,” trying to tie together all the many threads and figure it all out. Not that I can ever truly figure it all out, but I have so much fun trying. And I seem to figure out a little bit more each time I read them…
The only problem I have found is in trying to read another author’s work after finishing one of CJ’s books. After a recent re-read of the “Foreigner” series, I picked up a bestselling detective novel but the characters seemed so flat, the storytelling so simplistic. The story wasn’t really bad, but the way in which it was told…after a “Foreigner” book, it was a bit like reading “Dick and Jane.”
So many of CJ’s books are about the Encounter with the Other as a test of character. An underlying theme seems to be “All life is precious and intelligent life is priceless.” Bren overtly makes this statement in Explorer. Like Bren, Tully of the Chanur series, Sten Duncan of the Faded Sun series, Aiela of Hunter of Worlds and Raen the Methmaren of Serpent’s Reach all act on behalf of other species and not just their own; and this wider vision makes them heroes, people worthy of emulation. These characters have open minds and hearts and they act with courage on their conviction that all life, especially intelligent life, must be treasured. IMO, the Foreigner series is an extended examination of this theme.
(Which is why I find the creation and treatment of azi in the Alliance/Union universe so disturbing.It’s counter to the tenor of most of the books–which makes for wonderful complexity. I like a good ethical challenge in a book.)
Here are some topics I’ve wondered about. How are Guild partnerships formed? Do guildsmen ever swap partners? How does man’chi work in the forming of partnerships? Where is Bren’s father and will he ever appear in the books? Did Bren ever know his father, and if so, for how long? What is good old ex-stationmaster Braddock doing? Trying to get in touch with the Heritage party? Scheming against Sabin and Ogun? Setting up a Sundrink franchise?
Re Wepox’s “daydreaming: I “daydream” what if the Scary Neighbors turn out to be the iduve from Hunter of Worlds? Imagine trying to negotiate with that touchy bunch. Or maybe the knn from the Chanur stories? What would a meeting between Bren and the Methmaren be like, since this character is on the outer edge of humanity, enough to be nearly as alien as the atevi. . .(I feel free to speculate about other books by the author. Does anybody else do this?)
Thanks, CJ, for giving us all these universes!
Rigeldeneb: perhaps the Scary Neighbours could be the Kif (or Knn, as you suggest). They’d certainly be tricky and dangerous to deal with. However, Tully and Bren’s worlds are not apparently linked…
One other thing I’ve been speculating about: when the Kyo eventually arrive in Atevi space, they will need to meet Bren, the dowager and the heir. However, in my view they will also need to meet a powerful male leader. Tabini would probably not be available (apart from perhaps for a visit of a day or so via shuttle) because he needs to keep things together on the planet. Geigi is a lovely man, but too genial to become involved in what would undoubtedly be tough negotiations. I wondered whether Machigi – once things have settled down with him – could be such a figure. He is powerful, intelligent, energetic, fierce and young. He also seems to have some common sense. Such a figure would be a strong addition to a ‘team’ negotiating with the Kyo, who are seemingly powerful themselves, and respect power.
Perhaps that’s why there has been such an unusual amount of focus on the part of the story involving Machigi?
Interesting thought, Sapphire. Since Machigi is a very large figure on the cover of the new book! I’m just finishing Destroyer in my reread. Not as far as Pretender.
Sapphire: As interesting as Machigi is, I’d not like to see Tabini recede so much into the background of the story. I think Tabini must be among those who interface with the Kyo; after all, he is aiji of the Western Association, not a regional governor. An “in the flesh” meeting on the station does not necessarily have to be required. . .or if it is, as one of the cultural differences between the Kyo and their new acquaintances–wouldn’t that be interesting? What if the Kyo don’t understand about intermediaries, which is Bren’s role? What if the Kyo persist in believing that Ilisidi and Bren are in charge?
I think it is clear that the Kyo will expect to meet familiar faces once they reach atevi space, and that requirement is part of the necessity of keeping Tabini in power, since Tabini is the source of Bren’s authority. Michigi is a threat to Tabini and, therefore, a threat to peaceful interstellar negotiations. Will Machigi have the vision to look beyond his planet-bound interests? Tune in tomorrow, folks!
I want to see more of Tabini. I’ve missed his presence in these later books.
Rigeldeneb: I was just thinking the same about Tabini. We certainly do not want that enigmatic and interesting figure to drop from the story (e.g. via assassination).
However, it struck me that Machigi and Tabini may get to a point where they actually get on very well together, and Tabini could perhaps delegate Machigi to represent him. Otherwise how could Tabini get away from the planet? I think the trio of Bren, the dowager and the heir might not be quite powerful enough to deal on their own with figures such as the Kyo (not to mention the ‘Kif’).
It just puzzles me why so much attention has been paid to Machigi in these last books, in a story that could have been covered in one volume…
personally i think Tabini will see a benefit to pairing with Machigi, M is a powerful and resourceful man. Yet he does not seem so unintelligent that he cannot grok the benefits of aligning his manchi with T.
Bren is already tied to M very closely and he has quite nicely bound Ilisidi up into the package as well. Who is left? The Heir, Geigi, Uncle Siegi, and Tabini himself. Of course T plays his cards very close to his vest. especially after the coup and the security failures shortly afterwards.
T is struggling to find security in his associates. M is a bona fide leader of men and associations, and his insights can only help T stay in power. I do believe that T may in fact use M to meet the Kyo until such time as he can meet them in person, maybe on the ground. We assume the Kyo will be remaining in space, it may be that they bypass the station altogether given their past experience with the Reunion station and go straight to the plane surface.
Wepox: exactly! That’s precisely how I see the situation. I also think that Machigi, once allied to the ‘Tabini side’, would stay loyal. He seems to have that sort of character. He could certainly be an asset to Tabini, given the other lords Tabini is surrounded by, none of whom seem to have precisely the types of quality Tabini has (they may be supportive, but they are relatively soft, or old fashioned, or quarrelsome and undiplomatic, etc.).
I was under the impression, though, that the Kyo would not actually come down to the planet. This is going by something that Bren said at some point, I think.
P.S. I hope most of the action relevant to the Kyo will take place on the station. I miss some of the characters in that place, like Jase (who got on my nerves when we first met him on the planet, yet really flowered out in space), Gin, Bren’s servants, even Sabin and Ogun and the more minor characters like Kaplan.
I even miss those ridiculous plants (love the way their response to folded space, especially coming out of it, was described, though this is just a minor detail).
I too remember the plants with fondness, I had a writing teacher/coach that said the little details like that are the best ones since they do little to forward the plot yet bring color and flavor to the character and story.
I don’t remember the details of the Kyo enough to say whether they are planet shy or not. i am sure the station will be heavily utilized in coming books. After all, they are building their own space ship up there. I believe the Atevi will become the better space faring race.
Bren dangled the space carrot in front of Machigi, essentially saying forget the western coast, you can have a chunk of space. And who better to become spacefarers? Seafarers. I think once M becomes solid in his authority in Marid, he will look outward for economic and political power, there is only the Marid organization (which he will be dismantling), the north and central clans (who are hidebound old fools), and Ilisidi of the East (another group of backward thinking misanthropes). Who stands like a skyscraper amongst two-story buildings? Who is the tempest that stirs up the atevi teapot? Tabini. Only T has the clout, strength and insight to lead the entire planet (including the station folk) into the next phase of cooperation and prosperity. He will see where the younger M has some of these traits and may help him to develop them into becoming a formidable ally for himself, much like Geigi (whom i feel is really biding his time until he sees his moment to rise) who gave up his lands and title to a subclan to serve T on the station.
Exciting stuff, this universe of Cj’s, i feel honored to read about the worlds of her imagination, they are a gift to all of us.
I’m reading this discussion with Sapphire and Rigeldeneb with great interest and agreement. I’m just finishing Pretender in my reread and my memory of Machimi ATM is a little fuzzy, but nevertheless, I agree that C.J. has created a fantastic world and a great deal of pleasure for us all.
And I loved those silly plants as well!
Sleo: Pretender is my second favourite book in the sequence (after Explorer). The atmosphere in it is fantastic – the train ride is memorable, and so vividly portrayed.
Wepox made some very good points above. With regard to Geigi, I don’t think he is all that politically ambitious. He is a scientist, I believe, and appears to be interested most of all in his work up at the station.
Pretender is frequently hilarious! And I agree it is one of my favs, and Explorer, too, which ramps up the tension so much I’m hanging on by my fingernails.