I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
Who says seasons have to be all the same length?
I’ve read about (semi)tropical places with monsoon rains where they think in three seasons too: hot, wet, and cold (or was it hot, cold, and wet?); and sometimes one of those seasons is only six weeks long or so.
Apparently the combination of rainfall-patterns and temerature variations can lead to a perception of three different seasons in places from the tropics to the arctic, even though the elliptic orbit and angle of tilt of Earth’s rotation axis would lead one to expect four seasons.
And what difference would an almost circular orbit, and/or almost no angular tilt to the rotation axis of the planet make? Or an elliptical orbit that doesn’t have the sun in the middle, but stretches out farther on one side than the other? Or is that something only comets can have?
We do know there is some seasonal variation in temperature and weather, because CJ has mentioned things like that in the books; e.g. ‘Malguri in winter’.
The sun is never in the middle!
Wikipedia: “Kepler’s laws are:
1. The orbit of every planet is an ellipse with the Sun at one of the two foci.
2. A line joining a planet and the Sun sweeps out equal areas during equal intervals of time.
3. The square of the orbital period of a planet is proportional to the cube of the semi-major axis of its orbit.”
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Kepler_laws_diagram.svg/300px-Kepler_laws_diagram.svg.png
As the rarest of things, a native-born Angelino, I say LA has at least 5 irregular seasons.
Sorry, I’m not an astronomer, nor am I good at math.
Why can’t it be a circle with the sun in the middle?
And why, if the sun is this off-center to our own elliptical orbit, are the southern hemisphere winters just as wintery as the northern hemisphere’s?
If the whole earth was that much closer to the sun during one hemisphere’s winter, it would seem to me that that winter would be much less cold overall than at the far end of the ellips.
Can someone please explain?
Because there are an infinite variety of ellipses and only one perfect circle?
Pluto has the most extreme eccentricity of the solar system. Earth’s isn’t so much. But trying to disprove the astronomical fact of Kepler’s Laws by climatology is unproductive.
Wikipedia: “Currently, the annual perihelion happens at about 14 days after the December Solstice, thus on or about January 4. At perihelion, the Earth is about 0.98329 astronomical units (AU) or 147,098,070 kilometers (about 91,402,500 miles) from the Sun. (The eccentricity of the orbit also varies slowly over many millennia.)
Likewise, the annual aphelion currently occurs in early July, about 14 days after the June Solstice. At this time, the distance of the aphelion is currently about 1.01671 AU or 152,097,700 kilometers (94,509,100 mi).
On a very long time scale, the dates of the perihelion and of the aphelion progress through the seasons, and they make one complete cycle in 22,000 to 26,000 years. There is a corresponding movement of the position of the stars as seen from Earth that is called the apsidal precession. (This is closely related to the precession of the axis.)”
In short, the answer to your question is Kepler’s Second Law. Perihelion is in January, southern summer, but the Earth speeds through perihelion, slows during aphelion, southern winter.
Earth’s orbit is close to circular, which gives it regularity. A *seriously* elliptical orbit would cause more visible extremes, of highly variable (but predictable) length. Extreme axial tilt results in greater seasonal variations in the regular period of the orbit. Less axial tilt results in less variation within the solar year. The lattermost seems to be IMO the most likely case, given what has been described about Atev’ so far; yes there is seasonal variation, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot, and no real extremes. No tornadoes, no hurricanes, no supercells, no monsoons (so there goes *that* as a season marker…).
I’m speculating about the orbit because it will have a very real impact on the characteristics of the seasons.
Seasons of the same length are elegant mathmatically, which I figured would suit atevi sensibility. You can scribe a circle’s radius six times around its perimeter, a geometric relationship that I figured would make the even-ness of the number forgivable. Maybe atevi have felicitous five seasons, but what they would be and how they would be defined eludes my imagination.
If the atevi year is designed to have an odd number of days, unless there is a highly improbable cosmological accident that lines everything up perfectly, there inevitably will be leap days. How often would those be? What superstitions would accompany that felicity-breaking day, or the year attending it? Or, would they let the missed hours accumulate to the point where they add TWO leap days to keep the year at an odd number of days? OR is a calender, like baji-naji, a place where duality is embraced?
On the other hand, maybe atevi have a calender so organic and complex, in human terms, they solve differential equations in their heads to figure out what day of the week it is. Like the language and polite plurals.
OK, being as I’m in my “sweats”, I went in the bedroom and got out a plastic coated card I’ve carried in my wallet for a half-century. One never knows… 😉
Eccentricity of an ellipse = square root of the semi-major axis squared minus the semi-minor axis squared.
0.2056 Mercury
0.0068 Venus
0.0167 Earth
0.0934 Mars
0.0484 Jupiter
0.0557 Saturn
0.0472 Uranus
0.0086 Neptune
0.2486 Pluto
OK, looking at those numbers (without understanding the maths, as I don’t even know exactly what the semi-major axis is except something defining the length of the ellips), Earth’s orbit is quite close to a circle (only 1.67% off?); while only Venus and Neptune are rounder, the rest are more elliptical.
This seems to mean that the amount of Sun-energy reaching the Earth at it’s closest and it’s farthest point does not differ enough to be noticeable in the seasonal temperatures, so the northern winter (at aphelion, the farthest point) isn’t colder than the southern one (at perihelion, the closest point).
Did I get that right (if a bit inexact)?
@Xheralt, I don’t think you can write off monsoons quite yet, as I seem to remember someone at some point mentioning a rainy season somewhere (sorry to be so inexact, maybe someone here remembers more); that might be a steady drizzle, or it could be a more monsoon-type torrential rain.
CJ has also mentioned storms heavy enough to do a bit of damage – enough to be mentioned on the (national or regional?) TV news in Shejidan, or to cause one village to seek aid from another.
There’s enough seasonal variation for snow in winter, and summers that are hot enough to make a lightweight summer coat uncomfortably warm on a long hike, but some of that may be due to elevation and/or latitude.
It’s certainly interesting to think about!
The semi-major axis measures the long way, semi-minor axis the short way, surprizingly enough.
Perihelion is Jan 4th, northern winter! You got that bit just backwards. But your essential point is correct, for the present! It isn’t orbital distance that makes seasons–though it might–consider comets. You should go look at the animations of Kepler’s Second Law on the Wikipedia page though to understand the effect of ecctrincity on the length of seasons.
As to axial tilt affecting seasons, Uranus’s axial tilt is 98 degrees to its orbit. (Which brings up its own questions, fitting it into the accepted model of solar system creation. 😉 ) It’s often said to be “orbiting on its back”. Consequently, at one part of its orbit, its “North” Pole points essentially directly to the sun, opposite it’s the “South” Pole. The sun doesn’t just graze the horizon in midsummer, as it does here north of the Arctic Circle–it stands at high-noon all day.
I suppose it would have been clearer to use the term eccentricity in “It isn’t orbital distance…”
Simply put, the effect of the tilt of Earth’s axis is much larger than the effect of the distance from the sun in Earth’s orbit, so even though the sun is farther away in the northern hemisphere’s summer, we don’t notice. The axial tilt does precess, as Paul points out– it doesn’t necessarily have any correlation with the closest and farthest points of Earth’s orbit. But it precesses very, very slowly, so our seasonal year seems to match pretty closely to our solar year. Our standard seasons are based on how this axial tilt lines up with the sun, not on where the Earth is in its orbit. If the precession were quite a bit faster, we would have two completely different terms for seasons, one for how warm or cold it is, and the other for which stars are showing in the sky relative to the sun.
Regarding seasons, I think they predate astronomical knowledge and have more to do with the way people regard the important points of the year based on weather, crops, and other food sources. I suspect atevi would have five seasons, or some other felicitous number, even though I don’t know what they are. The Ragi seasons seem to be based around when certain game is kabiu. Bren refers to Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter, but that’s probably a translation artifact. Appropriate seasons in which to hunt specific game might not all be the same length.
I’ve also been thinking about how atevi regard compass directions. Based on the names of the various Associations, they seem to have North, South, East, and West. (Aishid’i’tat = “association of the West”, Aishid’i’mar = “association of the South,” etc.) This bothered me until I considered that an “aishid” is defined of a principal plus four retainers, so if we consider “Center” as a direction, there are 5 basic directions and no infelicity. 😉
There’s mention of the Padi valley as the Central Association, so that makes five for associations; but I don’t quite see how that would work for directions, as far as the translated names in the books go.
Four directions seems logical to us, with the top and bottom of the world’s axis (and the associated stationary north pole star) and with-or-against the direction of rotation; but without a magnetic pole at either north or south pole, or a polestar, to a people with an abhorrence of dualities, it might not be as self-evident as it seems to us.
They might use a compass rose with three or five or six primary points instead of four, and because humans don’t have short words for those points and (for example)’north-east-by-east’ is such a cumbersome way to give a general direction CJ/Bren translates it as ‘east’.
Does Atev’ have a magnetic pole? Even if it does, it might not be at the north pole. I can’t remember if anyone uses a compass on Atev’- did Bren have one when he was running through the hills after the coup in the Marid?
If not, would they work with a compass as much as humans do?
They didn’t go in for a lot of sailing out of sight of land, even though they had a lot of Astronomers studying the stars, so I’m not sure how much navigating by the stars they do. Across land, they might be navigating more by landmarks (and the associations living there) than by compass directions. Too easy to head somewhere in a straight line and blunder into an opposing association’s territory, I’d think.
Didn’t CJ say something about the maritime explorations once, and how they navigated? I seem to remember that they mostly hugged the shores, and that there wasn’t much to find across the oceans except one island in the southwest (not the drowned one that the blue glaze came from, but the one that trades preserved fish/meat with the Mospheirans).
Sorry, I’m getting woollier by the minute it seems; going to sleep now.
Polaris isn’t always Earth’s “pole star”! It isn’t stationary.
It’s highly likely the planet has a magnetic field. If it didn’t then energetic particles from its sun would make life on the surface problematic.
Indeed magnetic poles need not coincide with rotational poles. They can, and have, flipped on Earth, and during the process the magnetic field is chaotic–there may be several “poles” at the surface.
Interesting discussion. My thoughts:
The definition of four seasons we use, officially, is pretty natural — astronomically — on a planet whose axial tilt is moderate like Earth’s, and is occupied outside the tropical and arctic regions. (Two equinoxes, two soltices, dividing the year into four parts.)
But there’s no necessity for them to use astronomy to define their seasons. Humans don’t universally do so.
Or add a fifth astronomical divider. The first full moon after the autumn equinox might be a good time for a harvest celebration, in some climates.
On Earth, I’d expect the fact that the north pole is over water, and the south pole over land, to also make a difference in how the winters are. But I don’t know enough to speculate on what the difference is.
Do we know if the atevi aversion to even numbers continues to larger ones, like the number of days in a year? As the numbers get larger I’d expect the perception of them to be less instinctive, and more intellectual; and a large number can be broken up in many more different ways than small numbers. 200 = 111 + 89.
A bit of random speculation: I’ve wondered if the atevi dislike even numbers because an even-sized group could divide into two, equal subgroups with two leaders and no good way to sort out man’chi.
(Two equinoxes, two soltices, dividing the year into four parts.)
But a consequence of Kepler’s Second Law is they needn’t be anything like equal periods!
Or add a fifth astronomical divider. The first full moon after the autumn equinox might be a good time for a harvest celebration, in some climates.
Oh, you mean like “The Harvest Moon”? 😉 Among other things it means farmers run their harvesters round the clock. We can, at need, see surprizingly well by moonlight (for large scale stuff) once our eyes fully adapt.
Kepler’s laws don’t have any bearing on Earth’s seasons, except by accident. As we’ve been discussing, Earth’s major seasons are due to the axial tilt, not orbital mechanics. Imagine that the axial tilt processes once per orbi. Then in one hemisphere it would always be winter, while in the other it would always be summer– in fact, those terms would have no meaning. Or imagine the axial tilt processes five times per revolution around the sun. There would be five warm-cool cycles per solar year, in that case.
I’m fairly certain Bren makes use of a compass at some point, possibly during his cross-country hike in Deliverer. In Pretender Bren remarks to himself that Cajeiri has not learned how to tell which direction they are moving in (west, in that specific case).
I am fairly certain that it is specifically mentioned that the aversion to even numbers has to do with the possibility of a split in a group leaving no clear aiji.
Also, as a reminder, whether the year is counted as the period of axial tilt orientation or as the period of revolution about the star, if it is measured in rotations of the planet, there is no way for the inhabitants to decide how many days are in a year, whether the number is felicitous or not. The Earth year, measured in axial orientation to the sun, is 365.25 rotations long, whether that number is convenient or not, and a bit over thirteen lunar orbits long, again regardless of human convenience. I have a theory that the human fondness for the number seven (leading to the arbitrary creation of seven day “weeks”) is based on the rough length of time of the lunar cycle, and only the early Fertile Crescent civilization’s fondness for easily divisible numbers gave us 12 months when 13 would be a lot more rational. Then again, the 7-day week is arbitrary and not universal across human cultures (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week) and for that matter, there are several different, equally valid, means of describing the lunar cycle, depending on the frame of reference (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Month).
Our Beloved Author doesn’t need to reference any of this, of course. The human population on the world of the atevi seems to have been culturally homogenous and may well have forgotten the orbital patterns of the Earth system, and for the sake of simplicity, the story contrasts the cultures of the two species as having greater differences between than within them, especially in the first few books. Tha suits the nature of a story about deep, complex differences between two sapient species. But I do wonder sometimes how much of our perceptions of atevi culture are really Ragi-specific, rather than species-wide. The Edi and the Gan have very different traditions. Do they still have the same aversion to even numbers? What about the Nisebi, wherever they are with their preserved meat, or the mideideni heretics who believe one ought to associate with everyone one meets? I’m hoping Ilisidi’s trade venture will offer some glimpses into more non-Ragi cultures.
First of all, let us agree that the subject is very complex. After all, we’re discussing 3D geometry and conic sections. 😉 I will propose a slightly simplified set of facts, but the argument doesn’t change. No “spherical sheep” in my argument.
Your point is correct 🙂 , but the point I was making is somewhat different.
Please refer to this animation from the Wikipedia explanation of Kepler’s Laws.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/Kepler-second-law.gif/220px-Kepler-second-law.gif
Notice how the “planet” speeds up as it approaches the “solar focus”. Further, that it spends less time on the left of the perpendicular “semi-major axis bisector” through the sun.
Now, let’s assume this planet has an axial tilt, and strictly for simplicity’s sake that the axial tilt is parallel to the semi-major axis. (Or you can wind the precession of Earth’s axis back or forth, I’m not sure which, so that it’s parallel to its semi-major axis, eliminating the two weeks between Winter Solstice and perihelion.) Then the equinoxes will fall on that perpendicular axis bisector. So the seasons in the animation will be:
Autumn | Summer
—————–
Winter | Spring
And, if we’re looking down on the northern hemisphere, clearly Spring and Summer will last longer than Autumn and Winter. But as we said, the Earth’s orbit is nearly circular, not that eccentric, and the precession of our axis has made it not quite line up with our semi-major axis, so things that are not very large to begin with have gotten fudged about.
As I said, Kepler’s Second Law does have some effect on the seasons, albeit very small in the Earth’s example.
Ah, I see your point. With Earth’s orbit, the effect is negligible, but with a more elliptical orbit, the relationship between the axial tilt and the semi-minor axis would be highly relevant, affecting which seasons are longest in each hemisphere.
I still think the perception of seasons “on the ground” has more to do with practical considerations of food sources than with a astronomy, however, and I think this effect would be magnified if the axial tilt didn’t line up with one of the elliptical axes.
I should have said I was assuming that, like Earth, the axial tilt of the planet was away from the sun at perihelion in this view. Precess the tilt so it’s toward the sun at perihelion and the seasons would be very different! 😉
In the “grand old days” of hard SciFi, I’m sure one of the “grand old men” would have written an entertaining short story based on the facts of our discussion. 😉
p.s. At this moment our local classical music radio station (streaming on http://www.allclassical.org) is playing Liszt’s Les Preludes, which I cannot hear without thinking of little rocket ships with the smoke from the tail rising up, Buster Crabbe playing Flash Gordon, and Ming, the Merciless. 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Gordon_(serial)
Well, you never know what off-topic treasures you’re going to find on this board! 🙂 Paul, thanks so much for http://www.allclassical.org. I’ve been looking for a quality, thoughtfully programmed classical station for a year or so (ever since CBC-2 became unavailable to US listeners), and thanks to your post I think I’ve found it. Thanks! –And now, back to the atevi.
I do wish to discuss Protector and on this forum, as has been done in the past with other books in the series. What do we think of this book?
I say, it is one of the books more politics than action (except at the end), one where our author is moving pieces around, setting up situations–and keeping us in suspense. A whole volume–and we still haven’t had the Birthday Party! New ingredients are being added or uncovered (lord, how I’m mixing my metaphors!), and our author is getting ready to stir things up. Will the Kyo arrive in the middle of the celebration? I would not be surprised.
While I am totally engaged by atevi affairs, I find the humans interesting, too. Human affairs have gotten quite complicated: Alpha, Reunioners, Mospheirans and Phoenix-crew, with their relationships plagued by a history of secrecy, double-dealing and inability to give one another the benefit of the doubt. I always wondered what could be/would be done with persons like Hanks, Tamun and Braddock, folks who believe that their security lies only in dominance. Under the circumstances of the Foreigner universe, such a worldview just might be fatal.
I enjoyed the scenes in Precursor, Defender and Destroyer where Bren is getting to know new branches of humanity and humans who know nothing of atevi are dealing with him. He’s human, yet alien. Again and again I wonder how humans view Bren.
i admit, I also appreciate scenes where humans hold their own alongside atevi, such as Sabin doing her part in re-taking Reunion or, in Protector, Kaplan and Polano scary in their armor and a match for the Assassin’s Guild.
Best scene in the book, IMO? Tatiseigi touring Cajeiri’s guests through the cellers–and smiling.
I think Protector makes a good stand-alone tale, but as part of the series, it’s absolutely fabulous! I did find some nerdsnicker moments, like Irene changing colors, Tema suddenly working for someone else, and sunset coming at 0800 (I’ve cleverly managed to lose the note to myself with all the locations and details. Sorry, CJ.), but who cares? The story developement was intoxicating. I couldn’t put it down, and I kept thinking about it for a long time. I’m still thinking about it.
Damiri and Ilisidi in cahoots. Oh, my. I have no trouble seeing the arc of that story already. They’re both too smart to blow it, and they’ve got Bren available to apply his art in the touchier situations that may come. Dare I suspect that they’ve both learned some of Bren’s techniques, simply by watching him work over the years? Of course they have, which means they’ll get along well enough for an “apprenticeship”. That means Tabini, Cajeiri, and Damiri, the whole ruling family, will have worked with the Master. And Bren. They’ll be synchronized, or what have you. One reinforcing the other, with all the legs marching together. I don’t know what to call it, but I sense power in it. Epic stuff.
The tangle of human interests was intriguing. Once the atevi side settles down, I can easily imagine a trilogy or two to sort that out. But Braddock and his ilk are doomed to fail. Unless they abandon their minority agenda, they can only win by using force of arms against the majority. Force of arms? With atevi around? Dream on, brother. Plot your ploys while the sane work something out. The truth is, societies need independent minded explorers, stable manufacturers, and room for the gene pools. Spacers, stationers, and worlders. After all the political manuevering to come up with someone in charge of the various groups, it will eventually come down to negotiating a way for them all to survive and hopefully thrive. Bren would almost certainly get involved in that, being the most experienced negotiator in the known galaxy. I don’t know how he’ll do it, but he’s got to balance all those interests. I’m rooting for him.
Cajeiri was commendable and the kids were great. I expected Gene to be ornery and Irene to be wise, but not much beyond that. Turns out Artur (he of the rocks) is the wise one, Irene is the determined one, and Gene is smart enough to keep the orneriness down to “charming rogue” level (so far). Cajeiri was so good. When he told them that they had to call him nandi, I thought they all handled it about as gracefully as anyone could. They’re all good kids, and I’m not surprised that they charmed old Tatiseigi.
Kaplan and Polano were awesome, but the whole time I was thinking “They can’t possibly use that kind of firepower on the station.” Even if the firepower modules were interchangeable with ship useful ones, those suits are extremely specialized pieces of gear. Why would they go to all that trouble? I think they’re offering, have been offering, to build hardware for the Guild. Arms dealers, sort of, and isn’t that an old story among humans? We’ll see.
Sorry to ramble on. Love the book, Thank you very much, CJ. 🙂
The thing that struck me about the kids is that they were almost *too* well-behaved. No accidental (or “accidental”) wandering into off-limts spaces, no shows of temper, no tripping over things that uncover other problems. That part of the story was apparently given to Boji instead. Yes, I know, they grew up on ship, an evironment which can maim or kill if you poke the wrong thing, but that’s never stopped the curiousity-seekers before. The kids are so uniform, one almost can’t tell them apart, aside from the single hit-you-over-the-head quirks of Artur’s rock-collecting and Irene’s fear, which is so well-controlled, it never becomes an issue. I didn’t even pick up on that element of Gene’s personality.
Say that Irene (or any other of the kids) flat-out refused to get on a mecheita, or got so motion-sick (meds notwithstanding) they couldn’t continue? what would Cajeiri (or Bren) have done then? Found an alternative activity? Left the one at the lodge with one of Bren’s Mosphei’-speaking aishid? Or one of Cajeiri’s? What conversation would they have had, in halting Mosphei’?
A lesson from roleplaying game days comes to mind: a “limitation” that doesn’t actually limit you in any way is just window dressing.
Hhhmmm. . . I think I accepted the good behavior of the children as part of the “moving the pieces around.” If asked, I’d speculate that the curiosity/risk-seeking behavior that made the three young humans friends of Cajeiri in the first place might find a more exciting outlet in a Big Trouble During the Birthday Party scenario.
I’m also not sure I would mind it if the children turned out to simply be a plot device, a “reason” for Cajeiri to be difficult and different from other atevi. The series has so much going on that I’m willing for some of our characters to remain flat. Well, let’s see where CJ takes us.
Humans arms-dealing that armor to the Assassins Guild? Bren would pitch a double-dyed x-rated full-blown category 77 hissyfit. Exactly the kind of technology that would drop the atevi society into a maelstrom. Also, why would any human want to give the atevi such an advantage? Now, what I *can* see is some nutcase Murini-type ateva trying to get his or her hands on the specs for the armor so that he or she can by-pass the Guild and seize power in the Aishi’ditat. Some loon of a Reunioner might also be interested in the armor as a way to grab power.
The real question is–where was this armor when Phoenix returned to Reunion? Was it mothballed in secret on the atevi-world station and only recently recovered? Who ordered it activated? How many rigs exist? Who has the specs? Were the specs in the Reunion archive? Or did Phoenix have this technological capability all along, but never got around to manifesting it?
Possession of this armor has the potential to affect the balance of power among the humans. So far, we see the armor in the possession of a ship’s captain, and if Jase has it, Sabin and Ogun have access, too.
Everybody might get rigged-up if the atevi-human-kyo alliance has to face the mysterious entities that have the kyo in a sweat. And can they put that genie back into the bottle?
Our Favorite Author has already amply demonstrated that all that needs to happen is for an Ateva to realize something is possible, and they’ll Figure It Out on their own, usually with interesting twists and kinks included–what good to sell a rig to the Guild when it wouldn’t fit anyway? The Guild now knows computers plus automation plus sensors plus shaped ceramic plates equals a so-far unbeatable combination (it won’t take that long to work out microhydraulics). Even worse, from the standpoint of the balance of power: Atevi now know what they have to (learn to) defeat.
I wondered about this before, during the power struggle aboard the ship/station early on (Precursor/Defender). CJ led us through an intro into a less-armored (maybe unarmored), seemingly non-mech suit with sensor contacts and what seemed to be manually aimed pellet-stunners. Unless I missed it, even these economy-grade rigs were not in evidence (on either side) during the takeover of the second station. ISTR a comment in Protector to the effect that they don’t use the Good Stuff (the high-end rigs) in the ship due to risk of putting holes in bulkheads which do important things like hold in the air. Which strikes me as sensible!
I wasn’t surprised the kids behaved. They are vastly out of their “natural” environment, surrounded by strangers, *and* under constant supervision by one of the ship’s Captains. I imagine that they were told good behavior was an absolute necessity or there would be repercussions that could include being banned from ever contacting Cajieri again up to and including all out war!
Since we are now talking about the book, I had previously mentioned having a “squee” moment – it was when I saw that Jace had come down with the kids. I love Jace and have missed him. It’s nice for Bren to have someone to talk to who has a true grasp of his job – Banichi and Jago try to understand, but they don’t really *know* what it is to be in the middle, to be the bridge between all sides. They see it, but their own primary goal is keeping Bren alive, while Bren himself is trying to keep everyone on the planet and above it alive. Jace has that understanding to a certain degree and is Bren’s equal/contemporary, as well as still being, in some ways, his student – although now that he has grown into the captaincy Jace is stronger and more confident than he was before. (I don’t think Yolanda ever let herself see the big picture – if she ever did it probably terrified her) I wonder if Algini would come the closest among Atevi to understanding the pressures on Bren, with his bouncing between being high up in the Guild to pretending to be just a Guard, as it were. ah,I was forgetting Geigi. Yes, Geigi gets it, better than anyone else.
anyway, I hope the above made sense.
I also wasn’t surprised the kids behaved. They’re smart kids and they probably acted up on the ship because they were bored and looking for adventure. They’re going on the biggest adventure in their lives and they’re smart enough to add up the numbers. If we don’t toe the line, we’ll lose it all. If the numbers shift, they’ll act up once they think they know the real rules.
I like the development of Jase’s character. He finally has realized that he deserves to be a captain. I think it helps that the other captains realize that they’re out of their league when dealing with foreigners.
The mixing of humans and Atevi scares me. The Atevi seem to work best when the deal Lord to Lord with the rest filling in the details. It works on the station because humans and Atevi generally meet only at work in a structured environment. It’s becoming more common on the planet and they really need to set up rules. Humans on Atevi territory should be subject to Aveti rules.
I figured the rigs were in the military database which was not part of the archives and only available to the Captains. They would be overkill on the ship and be more likely to blow out the hull than solve a problem.
Isharell, that’s a fair point about the parental lecture, and I’m completely with you and scenario_dave about being glad to see Jase again, and his personal progress. Describing the haroniin (“accumulated stresses requiring adjustment”) of working together, and the adjustments thereof (hopefully never reaching the level of Intent Filed and consummated), could take up an entire book or so on its own. Perhaps nand’Geigi will regale us with an anecdote or two of the process over a cup of mediocre machine-made station tea at some point….?
One more pesky quibble about how things went with the kids: the breakfast where they didn’t really like the course (pickled eggs?) they were being served but ate anyway (“…or you’ll go hungry!” — 1/2 kidding). I thought that human expressions were an open book to atevi, especially atevi who’ve been around humans, I’m just surprised that it wasn’t picked up by the hosts — the gracious solution being to require the kids to eat only the minimum necessary for politeness’s sake and move on to the next course/item. While the cooks were clearly doing “human-safe” for the table, why didn’t Jase provide some additional guidance to them, wisdom based on his first days planetside, like “hey, go easy on the animal protiens, their stomachs won’t handle them well, start gradual and increase portions slowly…”. Ever hear a vegetarian/vegan complain about what happens when some prankster (or improperly-labelled commercial product) slips them some chicken broth?
There were moments I loved, like Uncle’s comment about the damage to his neighbor.
Maybe kids in general don’t rate that kind of consideration in atevi culture, but one imagines some allowances could and would be made for the first-ever human children visitors from the station…
Maybe it was a test of Cajeiri? They were his associates, so he was responsible to speak for them. The adults most attuned to humans were Bren’s and Ilisidi’s people. Uncle Tatiseig isn’t going to admit he noticed anything about humans. They were going into a potential security situation and they left the human children in Cajeiri’s care.
If Bren or Ilisidi didn’t notice or chose not to notice, I doubt anyone else would say anything. Jase might not be sure of the proprieties under Tatiseig’s roof.
Let’s wait an see what happens in the next book. Pre-orders are open on Amazon for Peacemaker, Scheduled april, 2014: http://www.amazon.de/Peacemaker-Foreigner-C-J-Cherryh/dp/0756408830/ref=pd_ys_ir_all_212
Regards
Ektus.
(I’m not sure that a previous post actually posted,so I may be repeating myself. If I am, please excuse.)
I read the scenes with the children at mealtime as a reminder of “strangers in a strange land.” Experiencing most of the story from Bren’s point-of-view, it becomes too easy for me to forget that the atevi world is *strange* to humans. Few experiences evoke strangeness like new–and peculiar–smells and flavors, especially when you have to be polite about them! I appreciate these reminders.
One of my favorite scenes in the whole series is when Prakuyo is made welcome in Explorer. Bren and his staff give careful consideration about what to offer him in terms of quarters, garments and food. Clear, cold water and simple sugars were offered first, as unlikely to upset the visitor’s palate and digestion. Such considerations would not, of course, occur to Tatiseigi, who has often hosted Bren, overlooking the fact that Bren is an adult human who has lived on the world and eaten atevi cuisine for decades. Such a consideration of the strangeness of the cuisine would probably not occur to Cajeiri, either. He’s still a child and inexperienced.
Imagine: one day some ateva might write a cookbook on how to cater for humans of all ages.
Bindanda, in semi-retirement, could well publish a coffee table book, beautifully illustrated and kabiu.
That is more than intriguing.
One hopes that nand’Bren will advise Bindanda to name said book something OTHER than “To Serve Man”… O:)
I love Algini-
‘What do you think is going on ,Gini-ji?’
‘One rather suspects……. that our problems are up a tree’
Now I know another way I can occupy my attention when I am at stoplights or in queues: imagining new publications for the libraries of Shejidan and Mospheira.
Another fun mental game–imagining conversations when the principals are not on scene. For example: the ship captains after their first face-to-face with Bren (I am sure there was a l-o-o-o-g silence after the doors closed behind Bren); Kaplan and Polano after they give up their quarters in Precursor; crew in the rec room after the ship tour; Jill getting squinty-eyed when Uncle Bren’s name comes up; Patinandi Aerospace workers after Bren’s first visit.
The possibilities are endless.
Yes! Between books, I do something like that. Scenes that are implied, but left off stage, slightly unfocused. I like to imagine how those might have gone, given the clues. That, and I go back and ponder the hints and glimpses down roads revealed, but not explored so far.
One of the things I enjoy most about our beloved author’s work (not just the Foreigner series) is the way she leaves room for the imagination to roam around. She’s not just laying a trail to follow a story. She’s also providing a light to see the landscape of a strange new world. (Ripe for spin-offs, if she made movies. Hint, hint.) Her genius for that is one of the main reasons why, in my humble opinion, she will always rank among the greatest of all time. It’s why I’ll keep reading and re-reading her stories, for sure.
I won’t bore you with my pet fan fiction story lines, but I’ve been having a lot of fun thinking about those armored suits. Not exactly Iron Man (no repellors), but certainly a step in that direction. Their combination of protection and firepower at the expense of mobility would obviously be best used in defense. I have to wonder if more mobile designs were available, but set aside because Atevi already have the Assassins Guild, which is only the best highly mobile firepower in the known universe. I haven’t forgotton the ambulating battle droids. Now it’s these suits. Live fire demonstrations, no less. The Shippies are practically advertising martial technology. Well, I guess it depends, actually. Who will see the recording? What will Bren say, if the Assassins Guild asks for control of such technology on Atevi land? I expect him to say no, but I hope he doesn’t. I hope he asks Algini. It’s only natural, and this is serious business.