I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
By lawsuit class action. These people are attacking the livelihoods and creative legacy of every writer and artist now and to come, and they ignore the courts: their lawyers fight a continual delaying action, and, like Amazon, they are so big the courts can’t get a grip on them.
And thanks—the history happened, and I thought it was a good time to put it in. The book is a little shorter than usual, and the back-history I thought would be a good gift for my faithful readers who have asked questions about what-when-where…
Yes indeedy re: gifts for the faithful–and, infallibly, your synopses always have little bits and bobs that I had a) forgotten, b) had interpreted slightly differently, or c) missed completely. Or, of course, there’s d): All the above!
Good ending…..many, many questions have been answered, but I’m sure there will be many more. Unfortunately, I was just too sleepy to start Geigi’s history, but that’s tonight’s reading.
I see where there are a couple of notes about errata on Jane’s page, not giving away any plot….I know you can’t fix them at DAW, but maybe letting DAW know about them would help, and of course, you can fix them on your own copies, too.
Just finished Peacemaker. CJ, I hope future books include more “history.” It is always wonderful to see a situation from both the atevi and the human point of view. Or perhaps you will give us The Very Secret Diaries of Kaplan and Polano!
I have been moved again to haiku, since it is still too early to dive into discussion:
Felicitous nine.
Such a grand celebration.
Don’t let Boji out.
All the adults are
Busy, busy with politics.
(Sigh) Baji naji.
“Gods less fortunate!
One’s son, one’s grandmother and
consort: All trouble!”
🙂 🙂 🙂
Loving the audio-book versions of the series on Audible! I was just trapsing around the internet and saw this:
http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/lapcat.html
How much longer until we have our own Shai-Shan? Not long methinks…
Oh heavens’ mercy! Irene is going to hit puberty at the same time Cajieri does!
One is of the opinion that it’s usually puberty that hits one, rather than one hitting puberty. Heh. And the manner of the hit is not always as one might expect, either.
If only one had known then what one knows now. Or had someone else who was of a mind to be helpful in such matters. Ah, well.
One did eventually get through it.
I was rather thinking of it as hitting a brick wall face first. It was unfortunate that I did not have the traditional aunt/older sister around, but I think that I survived. I later performed the aunt/sister role for the friends’ daughter who did the same for my daughters. I can only imagine that males do the same type of thing for one another, since I am barred from that loop.
Irene’s mother doesn’t even like her. Who will help our girl when she has to cope? One can not picture her approaching anyone whom we have met thus far.
Madam Saidin?
Damiri? (eek!)
I vote for Ginny, actually. Or possibly Sandra, since I believe she eventually got married and had kids… I like Ginny a lot, but I think she may have been even more married to her job than Bren was to his. But that would require Irene to go to Mospheira, rather than back to the station.
I wasn’t kidding when I said I wanted to adopt Irene. (She’s younger than one I did adopt, in fact, who had an even worse track record with parents.)
Sabin?
Yikes, even Damiri might be a better choice….
Jase has a mother and younger sister. Maybe she could go to them. I would not advise her going to Yolanda.
They also must have had friends/relatives among the rest of the stationers who survived, too.
If nothing else, she might have a favorite teacher. I know a lot of the instruction could be done via computer, but there must be a human checking on the kid’s education.
Hmmm, I’ll have to go look, but I thought the younger sister was YOLANDA’s. Jase just had a mother that we ever heard about….
I think you’re right, weeble. Now I have to go look too. And I just know I’ll get caught up in the book… what a pain. LOL
Wish that one would hurry up and come out on ebook. As well as the remaining Chanur books.
Barb?
Might as well recommend Jill (Toby’s first wife).
Irene’s mother is alive and I think does care about her. She seems rather neurotic to some of us (no Peacemaker spoilers, this is based on info from the previous book), but probably has covered as much of the basics as would be normal in ship/station culture. If it’s anything like the cultures in the Alliance/Union universe, girls are responsible for their own fertility/kids, and marriage might be optional.
But if I’m wishing for a good adult female (human) role model for a girl, I still stand by my suggestions of Ginny Kroger, Sandra (can’t remember her surname at the moment, the one with the plants), or Kate Shugart, from the Mospheiran side. Jase’s mom seemed to be ok, but the last time we saw her or Jase’s sister, they were about to be expelled from Phoenix and the station for standing by Jase, and weren’t taking it that calmly. Assuming they’ve gotten past that, Jase seems pretty level-headed, so they’re probably fairly sensible women, and maybe Irene would be somewhat likely to meet them, since she’s in Jase’s company so much on this trip. But they would be somewhat unlikely to interfere if Irene’s mother is around. The politics of a Phoenix captain’s family interfering between a Reunion mother and daughter could be explosive.
If she asked Aeryn Sun, Aeryn would probably tell her, “Shooting makes me feel better!” LOL.
One wonders if it would occur to Irene to ask an atevi woman for advice on human female matters.
However, aside from Jago or (gasp) the formidable Ilisidi, Madame Saidin seems, well, capable and approachable in other matters.
Cajeiri’s fortunate to have a number of male figures he could ask if he had some personal question of a private nature. Whether it would occur to him to ask nand’ Bren, despite their good association, again because Bren is human, not atevi, would be a question.
Strictly from my own past self, I would have been reluctant, shy of asking anyone regarding certain more personal matters relating to, ah, certain questions or difficulties common to adolescence. I would’ve been most likely to try to talk that over with peers, friends my own age plus or minus. But even then, in my case, I had trouble with some of that, because, well, there were feelings involved for the same sex, and I didn’t know who to confide in or ask things, except trying to edge around the subject with a best friend or two. (Results were inconclusive in one case, negative to inconclusive in another.)
That particular set of issues or that mindset or personality aside, I would tend to expect a teen needing advice on teen concerns, body or health or relationship issues, would likely ask close age-mate friends or else their most trusted / friendly (associated) authority / hero figures. It would depend on the personalities involved, the teen seeking advice and the person they wanted to ask, and I’d expect social norms would play into that. That is, are some things OK to talk about, while others are not, within the culture, or between those two people, for whatever reasons? Bearing in mind, too, that ship-bred and Mospheiran humans have two distinctly different cultures, not our own, and atevi have (surely) a quite different (and varied) set of values / behaviors besides.
One would note that yes, the girls and the boys alike would have their own sets of questions unique to each young person. Boys do have questions much like girls do, only slightly different questions, but similar issues. Sometimes rather different issues, either side.
Cajeiri, for that matter, has the difficult position of being the heir apparent to the ruling aiji, and thus he (Cajeiri) has to be careful who he asks, what he asks, and so on.
One doubts, though that it would be much more than a point between the lines, unless there were some reason why something would be a major issue to the story.
It is, however, an interesting question, and a sympathetic, empathetic one. — Whew, imagine being a young person isolated from your peers or your own species, and you have questions that need good answers, and well, where do you turn, or do you have to solve it yourself with no clue what’s going on? …Probably an original book in itself, that.
I’ll tell you who’d be a good mentor–Banichi! Jago turned out well.
Yes, and he’s already taking on some of that role for Cajeiri, and for his young aishid as well.
No criticism to either Banichi or Jago, but Irene seems more like a future paidhi to me than a future assassin. 😉 Jase’s sister might be a good choice, if she and Irene were to meet and become close enough.
I should have suggested Kate Shugart. 🙂 (I’m a little surprised we haven’t seen/heard more from her lately. With Deanna out of the picture long since, shouldn’t there be a designated paidhi-in-waiting? Or has the Mospheiran government given up on the institution completely?)
1-Irene is 11 and small for her age, so hopefully she’s got another year, or two or three, before she gets into stuff like periods.
2- That some of the biology is compatible doesn’t mean it all works the same way! There’s been no sign of Jago having periods, PMS or suchlike, so there is no reason to assume Atevi biology works the same as human, in these things. They might have something like a continuous pill, but biology and their internal medicine is one area where atevi were behind humans and haven’t progressed very far, both from lack of computers and an apparent disinclination to talk about such things. I can hope their biology is more efficiently organised than our monthly waste of resources.
3- Irene knows to be very careful about what she says to atevi, and atevi do not discuss children, families, or their own growing up even with Bren: it is clearly a difficult, maybe taboo subject, as in fact were liaisons between guards and their aiji (both Cenedi and Jago), and most relationships. there is no way Irene could or would approach any ateva about this, unless blood on the sheets brings in either Madam Saidin or Bren and his guards. In that case, the ateva in question is most likely to take the problem to Bren, who at least knows the basics of human biology and would have to do his best to explain to both sides…
4- I don’t see Irene or the other kids coming into contact with the people on Mospheira anytime soon. they will have to go back up to their parents pretty soon, when the shuttle returns. up there Irene does have a mother, even if she’s into troublesome politics, who can help her daughter with these sorts of things. so a Mospheiran mentor for any of them isn’t likely in the near future.
5- Emotional upheavals and attachments – oh yes, those will be there, but not while the kids are on their best behaviour during their first state visit! And the atevi are used to relying on Bren to translate the volatiler human behaviour into sense; they do not seem to dispatch much advice themselves, at least not across the species borders, so far as I’ve seen. A very occasional word of advice to stop the paidhi worrying excessively, but nothing like counseling of youngsters to deal with the hormonal upheavels, apart from some understated advice from Banichi to Cajeiri.
6- Banichi is the only parent, who’s shepherded a youngster through those times himself, and done so succesfully, in the close entourage; but madam saidin and the office manager and others have that experience too. i don’t see any of them offering advice, except perhaps a word from Banichi.
Paidhi-in-waiting: aren’t Yolanda and Jase sort of fulfilling that role? And there was a whole university department, to support the paidhi and produce the next one as needed, just like happened with Bren himself.
The rest has to wait for after Easter, when everyone has had a chance to read it.
I only suggested Ginny and Kate as potential mentors for Irene because either or both of them might be on the station at any given time. Ginny works with the space robots, and Kate may be part of the interface between the human and atevi station administration. (Actually, that may be why Kate isn’t mentioned as a potential paidhi-in-waiting– she’s busy. And yes, more specifics will have to wait until after Easter, but face it, Bren is *always* getting into Situations such that Tabini, Shawn, and anyone else who relies on there being a paidhi should be thinking of alternates. And Jase, as a ship-aiji, is probably no longer eligible to be a paidhi… and it would be better not to rely on Yolanda, who was never keen to be a paidhi in the first place.)
Assuming Irene and the other two kids go back to the station on schedule, I could easily see them trying to stay involved with the human-atevi interface (Gene has already made his own attempts), so Irene encountering Kate could be quite likely.
(Now I can’t remember the name of the young man who came up with Ginny and Tom way back when… Ben?)
I imagine by now there are some atevi youngsters on the station. I wonder how well Geigi and the human administrators are able to keep the kids of the two species apart? Cajeiri can’t be the only atevi youngster curious about humans of the same age. 😉
Remember back in book 1 when there was mention of an ill-fated atevi cultural immersion class for kids on Mospheira, and some graduate students got their funding cut? I wonder where those researchers are now?
We like Bren being unique, and people with high linguistic and math skills aren’t going to be that common, but there are a bunch of people in the atevi studies program back on Mospheira that I wish we could hear more about. 🙂
Yes, I certainly expect the kids, once back on the station, to try and remain in contact with the atevi-human interface. Ginny and geigi might work as contact points, because they knew Ginny on the ship, and Geigi carried the letter, but both are old (in the kids view), and busy and important, so won’t have much time for them.
I don’t know if there would be atevi youngsters on station, it doesn’t seem likely to me. There have been human and atevi workers up there for only a few years (while reactivating the station and building the shuttles there was only Phoenix crew, then a short time while refueling Phoenix, the 2 years the ship was gone, and the year since they came back); all the atevi and Mospheirans up there were brought there by the shuttles for some sensible reason, and atevi are quite logically protective of their children from the little we’ve heard – it seems unlikely to bring kids along with the work crews, when apart from Geigi’s and Bren’s households there weren’t really any permanent households up there yet. I remember Bren thinking about that, and talking with his aishid about what kind of effects permanently living there would have on atevi associations with their downworld relations, before they went on Phoenix.
And soon after the ship left, the shuttles were grounded by the coup, and the station went on tight rations and a race to develop their own food and water resources ; it seems very unlikely for people to start having kids under those circumstances, because of rationing.
And since Phoenix’ return, they are still on rationing, so the rash of new babies born on Phoenix after the stationers were rescued has probably come to a temporary halt. Anyway, any kid born on the station would be too young for them to play with.
Ah, good point about the rationing and shuttle outages. I’d forgotten that.
I had to leave before finishing and editing the above, but walking home I remembered that even today sensible sex education isn’t always a standard part of the American curriculum.
People living in the limited environment of a spaceship or station cannot ignore this. The chance of pregnancy was very tightly controlled on the station and the ship; they certainly wouldn’t risk youngsters becoming adventurous and becoming pregnant without knowing what they’re doing. As some youngsters already have had some experience at 12, I’m sure all the kids will have had the basic human puberty and sexuality explanations by age nine or ten, before puberty kicks in and may make the subject more frought. I rather expect this also to include a standard long-lasting contraceptive to be given as soon as menstruation starts; and that a woman would require permission from the captain or a ruling medical board or somesuch before discontinuing that, to avoid overpopulation but also so not all pilots will accidentally get pregnant at the same time…
Considering the havoc that can be caused by breakups and relationship troubles, sometimes leading to aggression, I expect that in the closed environment of the ship some kind of mental relationship hygiene would also be taught, and probably counseling available.
In conclusion, I don’t really expect that this will be something that would suddenly cause great upheavals to the human kids; much less defining than other possible choices and developments that might be coming up, and which I will have to wait for Easter to discuss.
The one who doesn’t seem to know much about what he may be on the point of going through is Cajeiri (I seem to remember Ilisidi saying something once, about having tried to warn him about something of the kind once, but him not being very open to this at the time), and he at least has Banichi for a possible mentor: I agree with Paul that Banichi is a good person for that role, and we’ve already seen him taking on some of that, on the ship and during the happenings at Bren’s estate.
And though Cajeiri has the example of Bren and Jago before him, with Irene being so small and childlike to atevi sensibilities, I don’t expect him to be interested in her that way. He’s shown no inkling of that in his thoughts, while his female bodyguard did get an interested look from him when some nighttime emergency (at Bren’s estate, I think it was) caused her to run out to him without her clothes on. With two fit and nice-looking young women of his own race always around, one of whom is less than ten years his senior, and not that long out of her own puberty at the time of their first meeting (remember aiji mature, or at least go through puberty, earlier than ordinary atevi), which might make the age gap mentally and physically a bit less than it might seem at first glance… if Cajeiri’s going to get those kinds of feelings for someone, or start experimenting, that would seem a much more likely direction.
As for the human kids, ship kids in general seem very focussed on their studies, on training for a future crew posting (Bjorn is already on a command track study course, IIRC), and generally behaving sensibly, and mostly according to the rules – they know breaking some rules has serious consequences. Serious and studious kids quite often aren’t interested in romance until a lot later in their lives, more like at 18 (or later, sometimes much later) than at 14, and that’s years and years away yet. They’ve got more interesting things to occupy them!
The atevi liked the idea of having three paidhiin, when Jase and Yolanda came down. At the time the idea was to have one for the atevi, one for Mospheira, and one for the ship. The sense of stability in there being three, even though Yolanda is not functioning well as such, still seems to be important to the atevi. Jase is captain, but also translates the atevi to the other captains, for the ship, and brings the ship’s expectations to Bren and the atevi; that part has worked out well, since his sojourn with Bren onworld. Bren is paidhi-aiji, for the atevi. But Yolanda as paidhi to translate the atevi *and* the ship to Mospheira, doesn’t seem to work well, and some of her slack seems to have been taken up by Toby with help from Shawn Tyers and probably the university department that the paidhi-candidates belong to.
That leg of the paidhi-tripod seems to me to need some adjustment.
These people are all around Tabini’s age, the paidhiin for his regime.
Now there are three children, interested in all the things onworld, not yet committed to other shipboard career tracks, linked to Cajeiri and around his age, proving they can be polite and learn the basics of operating in the atevi culture, doing well for their age. In the book before Peacemaker, even Tatiseigi accepted their politeness, showed them his collection of things in the basement at Tirnamardi, and liked it that they appreciated everything, conservative anti-human politician as he was. Though it’s not stated anywhere, I think I can feel Tabini thinking about the future, switching from trying to break his son’s ties to these humans, to thinking this might be a way to ensure his son will have a paidhi-tripod to help support him when he has to take over at some time decades in the future.
But on the ship, Bren thought these kids didn’t have enough grasp of maths to ever be good at speaking atev; maybe that was just because they hadn’t really studied it yet? Also, no idea what the kids might think of that plan, or what their parents and captains would think of it, or Bren…
That is a line of thought I find very interesting, but the rest will really have to wait till after Easter.
If you’ll excuse the somewhat personal nature of this thought…Atevi being naturally bigger in every way than humans, there is a reason that an atevi/human liaison might not work as well with atevi male/human female as it does with atevi female/human male.
I agree that Cajeiri is more likely to be interested, physically, in his own kind, especially when he is around his own bodyguards more than he is around humans. I would, however, love to read a scene wherein he asks Bren for advice. 😉
I don’t watch a lot of TV, so I was startled recently by a commercial.
I think it’s for insurance coverage, as if a family couple are going to a big box store. The gimmick in this one is that it’s a former basketball star and his wife, and the young lady sales clerk is bragging about her own high school basketball team years.
What startled me was the size and height difference between the basketball star and his wife. He towered over both women and would tower over most men. He’s probably over 6’6″, more like 7’0″. His wife was well below his chest level. They seem quite happy together. The young lady as the sales clerk was a bit taller than the man’s wife, but still wouldn’t come up to his chest. I suppose by comparison, it would be as if a late high school young adult was standing by a very middle school early adolescent.
In other words, although it would pose some unique challenges, it might suit the couple just fine. I suppose it might be a nice problem to have. 🙂
One notes that dogs seem to get along OK with even greater size differences between breeds. They still seem to…nature finds a way, yes?
Heh, though I tend to think Cajeiri might ask Banichi for advice if his father’s not available, he perhaps might ask Bren, as s confidant and trusted associate, a male he looks up to. (Though soon he’ll be looking down on him literally, though he may still look up…ah, yes, never mind….)
Cajeiri might also ask Bren out of inter-species curiosity as to what Bren thinks and feels, and how humans differ. After all, he’s going to be curious about everything.
Oh dear. When he’s old enough he starts taking an interest in such matters, it could be a most trying time for the household. Though I’m not sure how quiet / reserved he would be about such personal matters, as he’s on the enthusiastic side in much else.
Look out, Bren, it’s gonna be a doozie!
I think Cajeiri is most likely to ask such questions of the members of his aishid. They are all older than he is, but not so much older as to be unapproachable, and he is assured of their discretion– they won’t tell anyone else he was asking about such topics. Certainly he was wishing they’d been around to ask about experimenting with alcohol before he tried that.
With such sterling examples as Bren and Illisidi, he is likely to also wonder if early experimentation might be safest within his aishid, as well, if they’re willing. I think ultimately he will want a partner who is able to disagree with him more when he needs it.
As for the relative sizes of atevi and humans… I thought of that as well. Without going into details, it might be that the proportions of that part of the anatomy are not so different between the species, or it might be that with an atevi male and a human female, the “creativity” Cherryh hints at in Bren’s and Jago’s physical relationship needs to be extended a bit more. Sufficiently motivated partners can manage, I’m sure.
Since an intuitive grasp of mathematics is almost a requirement for learning Ragi properly, are any of the kids adept at computer programming or learning astrogation (one forgets)? The mathematical grounding of either would seem helpful, and programming is just another language.
Since these are Reunion kids would they even be allowed to study at that level? I suspect it may depend on where their parents are in the Reunion hierarchy. I get the impression it is pretty stratified with not much movement up or down.
Well, Gene (I think it was Gene) could get around some of the limits in the computers; Cajeiri picked some of that up from him. Bjorn was the one meant for a command or piloting track, and at 14 he’s started that training. He also was added to their shipboard group by Gene, and Cajeiri accepted him because of the numbers; he wasn’t one of Cajeiri’s first picks, and I don’t get the feel he’s missed from the group dynamics.
It’s not clear to me how much math, astrogation, or programming ordinary crew-track kids get on the ship. Considering the historical track record for Phoenix leadership, trying to keep access to important knowledge limited to those in the upper echelons (and their kids as replacements) wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
They’d see it as preventing a chance of mutiny, as the ordinary crew wouldn’t be able to fly the ship; exactly the same as keeping access to some knowledge only in the hands of the four captains – some redundancy in case of accidents, but still a very risky way of running things in my view.
If Gene, Artur and Irene never did get much formal math or programming schooling, putting them in an intensive training course might pleasantly surprise Bren with the results. If Gene figured out a lot of computer savvy on his own that would indicate a certain aptitude, I’d think.
Artur seems a bit more scientifically interested in the world around him, with an eye for the beauty of nature, and Irene a bit more of a diplomat, interested in the people, and communicating, and getting people to get along together; but of course that’s just my view on them, at present.
I am a relatively studious person, and was interested when I was about eleven and a half. I hit menarche before I was twelve and a half. I was rather ashamed not to be married before I was nineteen. I was an old maid in the culture in which I was reared.
It seems likely that culture plays a part, as well as biology. Here, the high schools are divided into at least four different kinds, by levels of difficulty of book-learning, or at least by different learning types. The easier ones go from 12-16 years, and do a lot more practical stuff and rote learning, and those kids go on to a vocational college or sometimes apprenticeships, or work in retail and services. The highest last from 12 to 18-19, and prepare kids for study at universities. There is a big difference in the way the kids interact in these schools, even when physically the schools are located together in one big building.
The vocational level kids are much more into boyfriends and such, at a much earlier age (as well as more bullying for kids who appear too studious or different). The on-track-to-university kids generally start that stuff several years later, and from what I’ve seen concentrate their energy less exclusively on the relationship stuff (and being studious is not something one gets bullied for in those schools).
So that was my experience I was arguing from, and apparently not at all a universal human characteristic 😉 Sorry!
Unfortunately, at least when I went to school a generation ago, US public schools, a student (child or teen) had to have signed permission from a parent to attend the sessions / classes on sex education, even in high school about to graduate.
In fifth grade, age about 11, the boys and girls were separated and one class period (an hour) of Science class was spent with a short lecture and film or two, very childish and cartoonish, on the basic facts of puberty and reproduction. It should already have been more informative and less childish, babyish. But it got across the most essential basic facts. It was probably not news to most of the boys, but I’m sure many didn’t know all of it, or had been misinformed by hearsay on things. Despite that my parents were very education-positive, I got virtually no discussion at home with my dad. He grew up a farm boy, but talking about it or knowledge of the facts were apparently way outside his comfort zone. (This was a pattern all through my teen years and beyond.)
In junior high, kids were required to change clothes and shower as part of P.E. Our first unit was swim class, as 6th graders, about 12. This was both wonderful (yay, we get to swim!) and troublesome (both changing and the swim briefs, for a very body-shy, religious boy who, ah, was very quickly discovering that other boys were somehow more interesting than he thought). — Swimming was great. Being so body-shy and discovering why was…hmm…problematic…and there was no one to talk to about it. (I had almost no clue and almost no experience.)
I think around 7th grade was when, for two or three hours of health class, we got another few educational films, also below age/comprehension level, but somewhat better about information. Still, one of those tried to be poetic about it: “The Earth turns. The seasons change. The cycle of life goes on.” (This was in between discussing how fertilization leads to a developing pregnancy and childbirth, the other part of the female cycle.) … It helped, but it wasn’t enough.
In high school Health class, our freshman year (9th grade) was the first real, comprehensive attempt toward education on this. Puberty, hygiene, reproduction, it was surprisingly, daringly, maybe, pretty informative. They even threw in discussion of the science in hormones. There was (oh my) an attempt to discuss contraception. … That was, unfortunately, more comedic than informative.
It was also probably way too late for most of the students. — One young white girl in my class, shy and a bit plain, very sweet, very quiet, religious, country twang in her accent…did get support from her family and carried her baby to term and raised it.
I had already had at least one big crush by then, on my best friend at the time, and was about to have another big crush. That it didn’t dawn on me until well into it that these were crushes…on boys instead of girls…was somehow news to me, despite that I’d had feelings like that since 11. (Uh, I must just be a late bloomer. I’m shy. I’ll meet the right girl and it’ll all click. If I pray really hard and I’m a really good guy, I’ll…be straight, won’t I? …Sigh… I did try to date a few girls, asked about three girls to the prom, went stag (solo) to my prom, got turned down by some very nice girls who probably knew me better than I did.) (I did have a couple of dates before, in college, I finally realized this really was not going to work out….)
In our senior year, 12th grade, in Biology, we covered puberty and human reproduction again, in scientific detail, after having covered plant and animal reproduction. By then, we thought we knew it, except the scientific, technical aspects. But this was a class of smart kids, and it was interesting, both as science, and well, in human terms. — But it was strictly science in those lectures.
When I went to school, there was discussion of abstinence. There was only once or twice discussion of contraception. Surrounding this were the religious moderates and ultra-conservatives and the more liberal folks. (My family were actually in the moderate-to-conservative camp, even though there was almost no discussion at home.)
This was the late 70’s and early to mid ’80’s. The words gay or homosexual or sexual orientation did not appear anywhere in the student handbook, although a guarantee of fair and equal treatment for all students, the wording on equality for race, religion, sex/gender, age, physical abilities, was present. — The idea that any student might be gay was taboo. — It didn’t matter that several boys, including myself, were publicly accused of being gay, or harassed, or in at lesat one case, physically assaulted, and all of them but me transferred out. (Only one was supposedly out. The others, it was either hearsay or merely claimed. I had no idea if they were, though I had opinions. Three of them were friends of mine. And I got called out on it too. — I went to my favorite teacher, my French teacher, because one, the first male cheerleader at our high school, was continuing to get threats. …He could have been gay, but I wasn’t sure. I nearly came out, in talking to my teacher, and backpedalled something fierce…because I was worried my parents would somehow find out. …EVen though I don’t think my teacher would have broken confidence like that.)
In the 2000’s, there was a court case, and Gay-Straight Student Alliances were allowed in high schools. There has been one at my old high school. … Even if there had been one when I went, I’m not sure I would have been brave enough to set foot in the door. I could speak up, publicly, for those friends. I could not yet speak up for myself and say yes, I was.
Unfortunately, my school district also had one nationally publicized case where a gay student committed suicide because he was bullied. — He was a middle school student. I could only think of my own questioning feelings, barely figuring it out at that age, and think, what a needless loss of a straight-A student, smiling in a class photo…and I knew the area, but not the new school nor the family.
But that also ignores that the current system, by ignoring the problem, by not really educating enough, by presuming teens and yes, pre-teens, will not “do anything,” — instead, those kids do go out and do things, and they don’t know how to take care of themselves, the emotional aspects are not at all covered, nothing about same-sex issues are covered at all, and opposite-sex issues are not covered enough. — So there are problems like disease, unknown and untreated, because that’s too secret; or teen pregnancy, because it’s also too secret and they’re supposed to abstain or with or without contraception; and the problems of bullying and abuse, runaways, suicide, and life on the streets, that face some gay kids, if they don’t get the support they need.
These are, so many of them, social ills, lack of education or miseducation, and too often, religious beliefs that ignore the realities of how people behave, regardless of how we might wish they could behave, or what someone might deem is moral or proper. (Or perhaps, evidence of the need to re-examine one’s beliefs to see what the creator really expects or wants, what he/she as creator might have built in as options, or as comfort, for support or bonding, as well as mere procreation.)
But then, I’ve heard from local teachers who say, under current policies, the kids aren’t supposed to even hug (public display of affection) unless it’s an “A-frame” hug (shoulders are OK, the rest of the body, not); and that the teachers aren’t supposed to hug or show affection to the kids, for fear of impropriety. — And faced with that, I have to wonder if, in being so overly zealous against harm, our system isn’t going to create the very isolation and misinformation and desperation that leads to the social and personal maladjustments, and criminal behaviors, that we claim we want to stop. — That said, it has been rare that I’d get a hug, outside of family or church or close friends, and as my extended family are far away, and I no longer attend church regularly, because I didn’t get support when needed…well, I’m of the opinion people need natural, healthy affection between friends, such as hugs, at least.
But more fundamentally, I think parents need to teach their kids at home, to answer questions and inform them, so they know how to be healthy, happy, safe, disease-free, clean, and how to have a good relationship, emotionally, and yes, physically…including what happens if it’s with someone of the same sex…and including what to do if there’s a problem in the relationship, how to stop that and how to talk to someone, to get support, to keep things good or to handle it if things go bad. — I think it’s a mistake to assume that pre-teens and teens are not going to experiment, play, or get serious about it. I think it’s a mistake not to prepare them for what can happen. And I think it’s a mistake for parents to presume that a boy-girl couple won’t do something that could lead to pregnancy; or that two friends of the same sex might not try something together. That is, I think it’s best not to put a label on it and presume a kid is straight or gay, but to say what could happen between friends, in case they do experiment; just as (presumably) parents (ought to) teach their kids what to do if a boy-girl date starts getting more serious and they experiment. …Or if it’s more than experimenting, either way. It would at least clear up a lot of anxiety and confusion for perfectly normal kids/teens, whatever their feelings are, whoever they’re really interested in being with. (I wish kids didn’t grow up internalizing that it’s not OK for them to like someone of the same sex, that it’s not even something they can tell their parents or best friends…I wish we could get past that, so kids don’t grow up feeling bad, shamed, or sinful, even into adulthood. It affects some percent of straight kids who experiment, and it affects gay kids and later gay adutls.)
So…I really think our American attitudes towards education on things like that badly need to change, almost completely.
I seem to have climbed up on a soapbox in the middle of all this. It’s something I feel very strongly about, precisely because I grew up largely without anyone I felt I could turn to when I really needed to talk and ask questions. And that was in a family, church, and school environments where I had otherwise pretty good support, information, and friendship and/or love. But I didn’t know, even in college, whom to confide in. (I did try talking to a couple of friends, but this didn’t help. And those other kids who might have been struggling like me, were at least as much silent about it as I was.)
And there was more than one teen pregnancy at my high school, a nice, suburban school, with a very mixed ethnic and economic background.
I’d say there need to be a lot of changes. I think we may be headed for severe social problems, because people seem to have turned even more conservative (and overly cautious or fearful) than when I went… even though on the other hand, there has been some progress. It’s a mess. … And it means the kids don’t get information. They get a lack of support, sometimes active intolerance, and instead of information, they get rumors from peers or whatever truth or nonsense they find in media, including online.
So…I’ll try to climb down from my soapbox. I wish I knew the answers to solve things.
I just want to offer what comfort I can about this topic– my daughters have just finished high school (in the northeast US), and their experiences were very different than what you (and I) experienced around these issues a generation ago. Gay-Straight student alliances and similar organizations are making a difference, I think. Both of my daughters have close non-straight friends and are comfortable talking about these issues– they even find it surprising, sometimes, that this is an issue. My younger daughter describes herself as bisexual, though I think she hasn’t been in a serious relationship with either gender yet. My older daughter is straight, but as I said, has gay and lesbian friends (her best friend is gay and married, and she’s an honorary “aunt” for his kids). We’ve been pretty open, all along, about discussing reproductive health issues with our daughters, and while we can’t keep them out of every problematic relationship, I think they know we’re there when they need to talk about what hasn’t gone right– and what has. 🙂 There’s more work to be done, but I think things are getting better in many places.
To bring the discussion back to the books, the only indication we’ve ever had about same-sex relationships that I know of was when Banichi indicated that he hoped Bren wasn’t attracted to *him.* Since marriage in atevi (at least Ragi) culture seems to be pretty much contractual for the purpose of producing children, but other alliances are also quite obviously common, the question remains: do atevi accept feelings of attraction toward the same gender?
And to make the question specific, is Geigi, perhaps, gay? Bren has mentioned noticing that Geigi doesn’t seem especially attracted to atevi females. Yes, he was married to a Samiusi woman at one point, but that doesn’t answer the question.
Nekokami, Joe, et al., Thank you. Thanks for putting things into perspective, for one thing.
I think things have changed some, for some of the under-30 and under-20 age groups, but it’s still a long way from acceptance.
However, the amount of change *is* significant and is cause for hope.
I’d like to see my own perspective on it calm down a little.
An ability to get along with others, not merely to tolerate them but accept them, is usually an improvement.
This is one of those places where the people *think* about things and tend to be more accepting of different points of view and personalities. Very much a refreshing place to be and people to be with.
(Oh, and the bit on Chekhov’s gun versus Chekov’s gun was worth a prolonged chuckle. Thanks, J.C. and others. It brightened my evening, a few nights ago.)
This is by no means to make light of what is a serious discourse. I remember when I was about 8 years old, someone had spray-painted the words “F**k yo” on the sidewalk in front of our house(they must have been close to being caught because they left off the “u”). I remember coming home for lunch and asking my father what the words meant. Poor Dad, he felt this was the time for “the Talk”, and he did his best to explain it to me. Funny thing was, I don’t remember some of what he told me, because I really just wanted to get back up to the playground. I’ve never told him that, I’m not sure what he’d think, but when I look back on it, he was so serious, so earnest about it, and here I am, I don’t understand half of what he’s saying. Well, at least I didn’t learn it in the street….during my sophomore year in high school, my biology teacher was a Sister of Charity (yep, a Catholic high school), and she taught sex education. No, she didn’t do any cartoons, she actually discussed it with us as though it were any other biological function, such as breathing, or digestion. I can’t say I grew up unbalanced by my education.
Not having ever had kids of my own, I have never had to give “the Talk”. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not…….
Re-posting because my previous reply is lost on page 12…
For context, a year ago I wrote, “I’m also calling Chekhov’s Gun on Bren’s thoughts about the downward complement of man’chi.”
Having just read Peacemaker, I can (without any spoilers) brag that I called this one. It’s a quick one-liner, but it’s there (for the reader if not for Bren)—and wow, does this have implications for the way human gestures of friendship will be misinterpreted.
Elucidate, please? It’s after Easter so we’re allowed to talk about the book itself, now, without being so careful about spoilers. I fear I’ve lost the context and may have overlooked the one-liner, and my dad has the book now.
At one point (IIRC it’s when the ship-born kids are upset about getting new cloths) Cajeiri is thinking about how it feels really good to give things to his aishid.
We’ve already seen how Bren’s instincts to protect his aishid are wrong for an atevi to whom man’chi is owed; now we see how gift-giving is going to misinterpreted as man’chi-dominant behavior. So what is the man’chi relationship when one partner both protects and gives gifts?
By the way, are there Ragi terms for the different rôles in man’chi?
Interesting, J. C. Salomon! I had noticed it as a bit of bonding for Cajeiri to his dependents, but hadn’t parsed it in terms of man’chi.
I wrote a reply, thinking about what we’ve seen of gift-giving in the series so far, but it appears to have been swallowed instead of posted, so I’m recapping it here.
We’ve seen the higher-placed people giving both small (the gun) and bigger and more important gifts (Nokhada, the coastal estate) to anyone they want to reward, high or low, directly connected to them or not (Ilisidi giving Toby the sea-charts), while those recipients are at least broadly aligned with their man’chi; as well as giving ribboned cards to everyone.
We’ve seen powerful people give gifts to equals outside their man’chi (Murini giving the vase to Tatiseigi), without this being in any way offensive.
I seldom remember a lower-placed person giving a gift to a higher-placed person, but it does happed on special occasions, like the servants giving Bren little gifts when Bren goes off in the ship. I think that all those occasions we’ve seen, the gift from lower to higher is something small, like flowers, sweets, or a river stone for a kabiu display.
Maybe within a household this is accepted as an affirmation of man’chi, as long as it doesn’t usurp the prerogative of the leader to provide for the group – thus the emphasis on small gifts from the servants, and larger gifts from those higher-placed than the recipient on (semi)public gift-giving occasions?
Ack! Not Murini, but the Marid leader who also starts with an M (Machigi, I think). It’s past my bedtime, I’m getting stupid, sorry. Goodnight.
I’m sure you mean Machigi giving Tatiseigi the vase, Hanneke. And Bren sent a small, no doubt exquisite, porcelain up to the station with Geigi, along with the contact information for the artist who created it.
But, there is an interesting bit of technicaleese that happens there! Machigi does NOT give the porcelain to Tatiseigi, BREN does as a thank you for the use of the apartment while its occupied. Tatiseigi knows Machigi had a hand in it, and is reluctant to take it because of that, but once he talks it over with Bren he decides to keep it because A)he likes it, and B) there are no strings leading back to Machigi that Tatiseigi has to acknowledge, just to Bren.
Now, of course, we have to wonder what signals of man’chi-dominance Bren has been giving off all unknowing, and which ones he has been missing that no one’s told him about. (Protecting his aishid is the obvious one, and one we know about—what have we not been told?)
Does Bren know what the giving of greater gifts implies?
(Of course, I could be reading this wrong, and Herself will just snicker quietly as we make all sorts of wrong deductions only to be set straight a book or three in the future.)
I think Bren is a man’chi magnet. Remember how both Lucasi and Veijico reacted with him? Drifting along lacking man’chi to anyone but one another, he talks with them for 5 minutes each, bang, they’re even willing to go back to working for Cajeiri, since Cajeiri is “focused” on Bren, as Tabini puts it.
I think what attracts man’chi is when the receiver shows that they will take care of the needs of the giver. Bren tries to take care of everyone he meets. He goes and looks up an astronomer for Geigi. He gives Tano a ribbon to send to his father. He offers employment to a pair of star-crossed lovers. He offers explanations to Cajeiri. He comes up with ways for Tatiseigi to make political hay out of a number of different situations.
I suspect Machigi feels very peculiar when Bren is around. Bren calls Machigi “aiji-ma” when he agrees to represent him in negotiations, but his arguments all involve him showing how he cares for Machigi’s people, and even for Machigi himself. “Believe me and do what I ask, because I have your best interests at heart.” Machigi complains that Illisidi collects man’chi “the way some people collect porcelain figurines,” but Bren is really the one to watch out for. 😉
I think you might be onto something. Both Bren and Ilisidi are extremely protective of those they consider worthy associates. Ilisidi might acquire man’chi all over the place, but she does so by guarding fiercely everything and by association, everyone in her sphere of influence. Bren, simply by being human and reacting in a human fashion, is acquiring man’chi involuntarily, in being friendly and caring about those who are showing themselves worthy of respect. He might not feel it in the same way that an atevi would, but he is enough of a diplomat to understand favors and obligations of honor.
I really like the question of what roles there are in man’chi and what words there are in Ragi for these roles.
I’d say too, that Bren reacts in a human way, but a particular human personality type. His instinct is to like, love, respect, protect, and both lead and follow. He tends to self-efface, to self-deprecate and worry, even when others would be fine with how he’s doing things. Bren instinctively wants to be generous and protective of the people he cares about. He can’t help being human and “liking” and “loving.” But his strong loyalty is a bit like man’chi, and his goodwill, his respect and immersion in atevi ways, seems to attract some very good people. … And yet, I wonder if Bren always is aware of how his atevi associates think of him, that they feel a strong connection too, over time.
Roles of who is involved in what ways in a man’chi relationship — Bren must be picking up signals, though he probably doesn’t clue in on all of them. Atevi only have the one ready example in Bren, until they get more contact with other humans. So it works the other way around, for atevi trying to learn to read humans.
We do get examples where atevi, particularly leaders or developing leaders, seem to go against what would be the norm, in order to show esteem, build a relationship, protect someone, things like that. Gift-giving, action to suuport someone who is not in great favor but who has personal value or value in ideas and actions, things like that. — We even see that people who are not leaders, often experienced Guild or household members, staff, etc., but a few times, random citizens, adults or kids, give gifts, ask questions, do other things that support, that promote relations. So how man’chi works, or how other atevi emotions and behaviors fit together, have a variety, a degree of room for interpretation, for how they are demonstrated.
I’m thinking of such things as how Bren answers questions early on from tourists at Malguri, from children who write in with questions about human intentions, staff who show appreciation to Bren in gifts or words or actions, even the first interactions where the staff and cooks are impressed because Bren attempts to speak and interact with them. They appreciate the attempt at understanding.
I would bet that, between the human kids and Cajeiri, for instance, we see more of the differences in how human and atevi feelings and instincts work, and how they sort those out on both sides. Bren’s gifts and notes tend to put a lot of thought into what he’s trying to do, what he wants to get across, as well as, nearly always, an expression of high esteem or respect for whom he’s addressing or giving a gift. That porcelain for lord Geigi, for example. Bren takes the time to find something beautiful and rare, to enhance Geigi’s collection, or rather to start it, as a welcome gift to the station. I notice Ilisidi also tends to be thoughtful in how she does things like giving gifts or doing things to support someone she values. (I keep having to avoid the word “like.”)
—–
Somehow, this keeps reminding me of how cats (or dogs too) have a different way about them in how they like or love or associate. Cats and dogs are markedly different in their style, their approach, and both are different than how humans show friendship and affection, loyalty, love. Yet there is, below that, an instinctual basis that isn’t too different, despite the style of expression involved. — My cats feel differently about each other and about me, most probably, than how I feel about them. Species differences. Yet we still have some level of understanding, a mutual affection and respect. So when I get home after a trip to the store (etc.) they want to greet me, to re-establish that bond is still strong. They always want to be around, often into things, or at least to observe, to “hang out with” me. (How other mammals do things, I’m not sure. I’m most familiar with cats and dogs, up close, and I can tell that others, like horses, ferrets, etc., do have ties like that, and their own styles.)
…And yet, I have to remind myself that atevi are wired differently than that. What an ateva feels is his or her own species and individual way of being. I really like that the series gives me that level of true alien-ness, that detailed sense that the atevi are not just humans in masks, say. — But based on my experience dealing with people or dealing with other animals, I’d say, ultimately, we, like Bren, or like the atevi, read signals, work on learning to interpret what those signals mean, so we develop a feel for how to communicate with each other. Very interesting, culture and linguistics and para- (meta-?) linguistically.
SPOILERS.
After all the tangential discussion about the kids and their ages, the bit I really liked best about Irene in the book itself is the way Damiri reacts to her.
That she’s a small girl (to atevi sensibilities), and Cajeiri likes her, takes good care of her, and respects her, seems to give Damiri hope for how he might treat a little sister. I get the impression Damiri has been worried about whether Cajeiri might be a threat to her baby. She hasn’t had the raising of him, hasn’t seen him in years, doesn’t trust Ilisidi who did raise him, and doesn’t feel shehas any influence on him; and considering the power politics (assassination) within that family in previous generations, and in atevi clan succession, and with Ajuri priming the pump for raising her daughter the Ajuri way as a future potential rival for the aijiinate, that fear was not unreasonable. Now, in Cajeiri’s actions regarding little-girl-Irene, she sees him acting very differently from her fears for his character.
Damiri also gets some clear indications from him that he does regard her as his mother and an essential part of his family, something which (with contract marriages and kids born for one of the contracting partners) is not a universal given in atevi families, which should lessen her fear for her own situation – and concommitantly, for the daughter who will be raised by her.
Thirdly, she’s been talked-at by her Ajuri relatives who are very anti-human and against the changes Ilisidi has been working for, and has seen Bren as part of Ilisidi’s entourage instead of her husband’s for the past several years, so she appears to have lost some of her trust in him. I get the impression that a small, polite litle girl, who is old enough to be sensible and deferential, but small enough to never be a threat to even a half-grown atevi child, maybe looks to her like a human contact it might be useful for her (and her daughter?) to cultivate. I have the impression that atevi households aren’t sexist but are often rather separated along gender lines: it doesn’t restrict women or men from certain occupations, and allows mixed-gender teams, but often these are related (we’ve seen father-daughter, sister-brother); but it is more usual for a woman like Damiri to have an all-female staff, and Ilisidi’s entourage of (younger) men is considered unusual and somewhat scandalous, even though by now everyone is used to it. This might give Damiri the idea that if Tabini has Bren, and Cajeiri is to have Gene and Artur (both for gender division and because atevi naturally think in teams-of-2[not 3!]-plus-a-leader) as human contacts, it might be a good idea to have Irene as a possible human contact for the female side of their household…
Yes, I really liked the interaction between Damiri and Irene. I agree that Damiri might take some hope from the way Cajeiri treats Irene, but Damiri is also very aware that Irene is actually the oldest child of the group, and they are all older than Cajeiri. Still, the idea that Damiri is intriqued by a *female* human as a potential future ally is a cool one. 🙂
Damiri was quite pleasant to Bren in the second book, and for that matter, in… losing track of titles now… 8th book? When they are all holed up at Tirnamardi, and Damiri sends in servants to take care of the Paidhi. A lot has happened since then to make her upset with him, but I was very pleased to see, toward the end of Peacemaker, that she listened to Bren and seemed to trust him when he started explaining to her what had been happening. And she has to have had a fair amount of trust to keep him with her during what happened just after that conversation! (Yes, I know we’re technically past the spoiler warning period, but still.)
As for future paidhi candidates, mid-book Bren is telling everyone to rely on Toby if something takes him out, and I don’t really see that, myself. Toby is fairly diplomatic, and more fluent in Ragi than most humans, but what about Kate and Ben? They’ve been doing the work of dealing with atevi on the station, and they have the formal training. Did the rest of the Foreign Service program on Mospheira get completely shut down when Bren started publishing dictionaries and taking a salary from Tabini? Or is Bren implying that he thinks someone who came through the regular paidhi training program isn’t suited anymore for what the job has become?
Yes, I liked seeing Damiri at the end of the book start to again give Bren some more of her trust, in asking for his views, and really listening when he told her – much more candidly than I think she expected from our usually somewhat circumspect Bren. I got the feeling she recocgnised not only his truthful representation of his view on things, but also the earnest feeling of wanting to keep her on board with the aijinate, not discounting her completely because of the doubtful and discredited Ajuri influence. That Bren could see such an influential future as a possibility for her shook her, I think.
She does have some tendency to aijiness – she has aspired to becoming clan-head IIRC, though in the present situation as Tabini’s wife that would be politically impossible; but she seems to have some fairly strong ambition towards that feeling of being able to influence policy. I got the impression that some of her discontent of the last while has been caused by perceiving herself as having no influence: her entire support-staf taken away by Tabini when one of them proves less loyal to her than she thought (an upsetting feelling of misjudging man’chi in itself), her (Ajuri-influenced) suggestions ignored… It’s clear why Tabini did so, as long as she was under her father’s influence he could not do much else; but for someone who had been a partner in at least some of the decision-making before, feeling locked-out like that is very upsetting, and was driving her farther away. She seems now to be letting go of her father’s influence, and re-aligning herself more strongly with Tabini. I so hope he can keep from crushing her, and give her enough responsibility and trust to regain her self-worth and feeling of worth in this partnership. I think he wants to, but his temper finds opposition and doubt of his decisions hard to stay patient with.
If he can give her room enough that she can see a safe and at least somewhat influential future for herself and her daughter in this future he’s building, I think that will go a long way towards building peace in that household. That might be helpful in keeping the North at peace in the Association.
I agree with you about Toby, I don’t see him as a possible successor to Bren. He might work as a stop-gap courier of information between Tabini and Shawn Tyers, but not all the rest.
I’d completely forgotten about Kate Shugart and Ben on the station!
They were in the paidhi-trainee program, and have been doing cultural interface and translation work for at least three years now, so they should be good candidates – quite a bit more experienced than Bren was when he started.
In a sudden emergency, it would be hard getting at least one of them down to earth – a shuttle would have to go up first, and then come down again and land safely. That might be a reason to consider Toby as an interim go-between.
I don’t expect the university program on Mospheira was terminated;in the beginning they’d have wanted an alternative of their own available. Now, with Shawn who understands its importance as President of Mospheira, and with more and more contact as parity grows, and the necessity of working together on the spacestation, and then the scary breaking off of contact by Murini (necessitating finding out what he was up to in other ways, and finding ways to counteract him), I’d rather expect it to be expanded. So there should be a pool of potential translators and ‘cultural anthropologist’ type students to recruit from – but none with Bren’s total immersive experience. He really needs to institute something of a graduate advanced training program. Maybe once the shuttles are flying again, he can get Kate or Ben down for some of the cultural immersion stuff, and send a new university-person up to the station to help the other and grow into the translator-part of the job up there.
After the atevi experience with Jase earlier, and now with the kids and Jase and his guards as Cajeiri’s guests, I think the atevi will be a lot more open to that idea, instead of holding tightly to the strict ‘only one human allowed here’ rule.
Maybe the Foreign Office part of the University of Mospheira could open up a branch on the station (advanced practical training for the senior students?), and the Reunioner-kids could get a chance to participate in it?
Some decades into the future I see a need to expand this. If the stationer-population is going to remain aloft, and grow once they get their resources going, or need or want retraining and a chance to switch jobs and maybe emigrate to Mospheira at some future date, getting some other university programs and courses going on the station would help integrate the populations in the long term. It might even offer opportunities for the atevi university to do the same, and get some interaction going in a place that is getting used to dealing across species lines.
The naming of the young gentleman as heir takes away any reason he might personally have had to make away with his sister. Good call for your marriage, Tabini!
Unfamiliar with wars of succession, e.g. “The War of the Roses”, are ye? 😉
Not at all, nor with Henry IV of England and his sons, nor with Jacob and Esau. Those are human examples, and not of us at our best, I fear. Machimi are full of misplaced manchi and hidden manchi as well. Romeo and Juliet might be seen as two who had true manchi to their aiji trying to bring their elders into a more proper alignment with said manchi, and only succeeding by their deaths, or so I think. Our mistress of kabiu will have an opinion as to that, which I hope she will share! You a-listenin’, CJ?
It all depends primarily on how secure the heir/monarch feels in his/her position. Regicide is in ragi recent history and a coup attempt was just defeated, so one ought not feel so confident. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. We’ve seen, as you note, there are enough “adept” people about with traitorous manchi.
Even Tabini wouldn’t be at all secure if Illisidi wasn’t so confident in her ability to play “the long game”.
Threats may not be just from brothers, though often are, but what about an ambitious brother in law? No, princesses are not to be ignored; they might, on their own, turn out to be a Goneril or Regan. It might just as easily have been Princesses in the ower!
I agreed with Tommie’s assessment of this, *if* the baby isn’t raised to consider herself a rival, but instead a valued ally and supporting pillar of the regime. It’s one reason I hope Damiri will integrate herself again with Tabini’s regime, as she will have the raising of the girl. If she keeps the kids apart they won’t have the chance to build that deep trust. I also very much hope the characters of Cajeiri and his baby sister don’t clash too badly, and they can learn to appreciate one another.
Or just adds one additional speed bump for her to plow over in the course of taking the aijiinate away from him. Cajeiri could have shifted to other paths (well, still could, give or take mounting said speed bump in reverse); for example, if completion of the first atevi starship in any way coincides with his majority, he’s a natural for Captain. He has aiji-inclination to lead, ability to attract man’chi, and is tech-savvy. If the build schedule is longer, that may be an outlet for his sister (and a lifesaving relief for Cajeiri).
I’m more afraid that Tabini’s move here will trap the little one into being sigaiji: smart, educated, and otherwise competent, having the inclination to lead, but being unable to draw followers.
Odd thoughts in this last page.
(Anti-spoiler: I’m only up to Betrayer, and I may have missed one totally along the way. 🙁 Budgetary constraints lead me to prowl used-book stores.)
1) Mainstream American culture for the most part still has a strong Puritan streak in it, all these years later. For another example of cultural persistence look at the Appalachian subculture and Elizabethan England.
I’d hate to see it portrayed as a model human culture. There are certainly lacunae of rationality within “Mainstream American Culture”, but on the whole I think we’d have to say one of the striking contrasts of atevi culture seems to be its rationality. There are other modern human cultures that don’t seem to share our fixations.
2) I’d hate to see Banichi become some sort of “superman”. I think one of his intriguing personality characteristics (Shared with Illisidi?) is a combination of ruthlessness with gentleness. I would say for all his competency and willingness to take extreme actions when necessary, that’s “when necessary” and it hasn’t made him a “hard man”.
I feel lucky that I had what ‘health education’ I did. My mother’s family considered it to be a husband’s job to inform a woman of the ‘facts of life’. My father thought everyone knew them. It took Mama until her third pregnancy to figure out how it was happening to her. I think that’s abusive, since she would have been the one to take all of the punishment for an out of wedlock pregnancy.
Opinion: Other human cultures can have their insular qualities, their foibles and blind spots, but also their great strengths. And the similarities and differences to typical American culture can be very curious to see indeed.
Other opinion: My dad’s family come from that Appalachian mountain subculture and my mom’s family come from the Oklahoma and north Texas subculture. So, y’know…it’s bound to have influenced my upbringing.
Tabini remains a most enigmatic character. What is it that he sees in Bren and in the future that makes him place such trust in Bren (he entrusts his ring of office to a human!)? I am remembering the observation in one of the earlier books that the paid’hi and his aji often come to be alike–and why would that be? What *does* go on in the subconscious parts of these relationships?
I agree with Hanneke’s comments about Damiri’s reaction to Irene and the reasons for. I have felt a great deal of sympathy for Damiri’s distress about being separated from her first child and her fears of being separated from her second. As a mother, the scene at the end of Peacemaker was satisfying for me on a number of levels.
Figuring out atevi parent-child relationships is still tricky; however it is clear that there can be strong attachment between parents and child. Cajeiri seemed deeply distressed at the notion of his mother and father separating. His parents’ opinion of him matters greatly, and he wants them to be proud of him. These emotions seem quite human.
Jago occasionally mother-hens Banichi–but it is difficult to tell if this is parent-child attachment or care for one’s partner. Is this kind of close partnership peculiar only to the Assassin’s Guild, or does it show up in other guilds or parts of Atevi society?
Tabini and Illisidi yell at each other quite a lot, but move very quickly to protect each other and each other’s interests. Perhaps that is not all politics?
Speaking of mother hens, Bren’s attitude toward Banichi has edged into the comic.
re the mother hen comment – maybe Bren would calm down if Banichi would admit he’s only (ahem) atevi. Banichi seems to think he’s immortal. I think getting shot really surprised and embarrassed him. “Dang, you mean bullets don’t just bounce off due to my incredible fabulousness?”
…sorry, I’m tired and feeling a bit silly.
Rigeldeneb said “Tabini and Illisidi yell at each other quite a lot, but move very quickly to protect each other and each other’s interests.”
this sounds a lot like the way things were done in my dad’s family. One day someone is feuding with you, and then you break a leg or something and that former enemy rallies at your door, ready to help in any way they can, up to and including attacking your other enemies. It was very confusing sometimes. My mom said they were very clannish.
Remember how siblings fight with each other over the least little thing, “Ma, he’s touching me!” “Pa, he’s making goo-goo eyes at me.” But let anyone from outside the family pick on either sibling, and the other one would be in there fighting them off their sib……
“We can pick on each other, but nobody else can!”
I’ve “discovered” three laws. The second is my favorite and in my typical email “signature block”.
1. Everybody’s gotta have someone to pick on. For a stable “society”, of course. If not, somebody’s gonna go “postal”.
2. Everything you do communicates. It’s all a matter of being able to “read the signs”.
3. There is no such thing as teaching, only learning. The little pull-chain that lights the bulb is out of reach.