I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
Whew! that was a great thread, it is so interesting to hear about other people and their histories. This discussion is the very reason that Ilisidi pounds the Machimi into Caleiri’s head, it is their history, culture and genealogy all in a neat little package. Our own history is important to know so we are aware of the strides we have made, and where not to tread. I felt heartened by Caleiri’s realization that he saw a situation he was in, (the lack of manchi by the guild guards) in one of Mani’s machimis. He felt the tug and pull of his ancestors just as they knew he would. To everyone’s relief he behaved in the proper manner, despite jumping the wrong way when danger struck.
Hi, everybody. Sapphire, your comments about Bren’s expression on the cover of the new book made me review how the portrayal of this character changes. On the first three books, Bren looks a wide-eyed ingenue, dwarfed by Banichi and Jago. (Invader is my favorite cover–exquisite details and colors.Yes, and Jago is beautiful, not just big–who made that comment earlier in the thread?–I read it and nodded.) When Bren is depicted in atevi court garb, for example on the cover of Destroyer, he looks older and tougher. I suppose the gun in his hand helps the “tougher” image. (Sometimes I get fed up with those “I’m tough with a gun” poses on SF books. Violence as the way to get things done–agh! What, we can’t envision that the species ever outgrows this mindset?) I found the cover of Pretender very curious–everybody looks like children to me!
I decided that the cover of Conspirator must depict Tano and Algini–good, they get their turn. The Bren of this cover looks a little odd to me–long-nosed, cautious, as if he were a type of creature that would peep out of a burrow. On the Deceiver cover, though, he looks wholly mature, charismatic and dominating. It would not be a good idea to piss this Bren off.
The latest book’s cover artist’s discussion of his creation process was fascinating. The expression on Bren’s face on this new cover says he is a person to reckon with.
First the computer disappears, then the gun. Atevi court lace remains–I suppose we can chart Bren’s career by the artifacts associated with him. . .
Rigeldeneb: I really like the Conspirator cover with Tano and Algini (I’ve always thought that this was who they were). The Deceiver cover is probably my favourite. Jago looks beautiful on it, and the Banichi, Algini and Tano also look terribly impressive and just how I imagine they would look. These are the best depictions of the Atevi for me so far. Yes, I think Bren does look more confident and a figure to be reckoned with on the latest cover. (I think, though, that the faces of Machigi and the heir need to be a bit more Atevi-like: sharper noses, higher cheekbones, slimmer faces.)
I’ve been re-reading the whole sequence and have nearly finished Deceiver. I must say, the particular elements I so disliked on the initial reading of this title have disappeared into the background for me. I barely notice them. I am noticing Machigi, however. Though only 22 years old, he appreciates beautiful objects: it is interesting the way he commented on the tea service from a now-drowned island, and talked about trying to research what the dyes were that produced a particular blue colour, which was probably from a plant that was now extinct. I also noticed that almost the first thing he talked about – as if he were intensely curious – was the space station and what was ‘out there’, and that he expressed a desire to have a stake out in space.
The more I think about it, the more I believe Machigi will be a great asset to Tabini’s closest allies – and being near to the heir’s age, he might well become a close associate of his, not to mention the dowager, who also appreciates fine things, and tries to preserve the planet’s ancient inhabitants like those flying creatures (witikin?).
All very interesting – but I need the following volumes NOW (italics), not once a year or so…
P.S. I also sense that Machigi is quite lonely and perhaps a bit desperate out there, and needs allies. He is so very young to have assumed such a responsible position…
A little off topic: When the shuttle flies out of Shejidan is the control like that of the shuttle control at the Johnson Space center, or is it closer to regular air traffic control? (Can you guess that I’ve been watching Atlantis lift off this morning?)
Right. I’ve now finished re-reading the whole sequence, up to and including Betrayer. I’ve noticed things that I wouldn’t have picked up just by reading each book as it is published.
Bren is definitely a very different man compared with what he was in Foreigner – he’s much more confident and sure of himself, less ‘whiney’ and there is little hesitation in his dealings with tricky individuals among the Atevi. Caijeri is maturing nicely and it’s great that we are leaving behind the ‘young rascal’ stage. It will be interesting to see how he deals with the two returned young bodyguards, and how they respond to him.
I’m also dying to see Tabini meet Machigi (I can imagine the latter suddenly turning up at Bren’s house, given how young and impetuous he seems to be.) They could be two forces that might get on rather well after some initial stress, and Caijeri could well form a good tie with the young lord, given they are quite close in age. I’m also looking forward to Ilisidi telling off Machigi for some kind of ‘bad’ behaviour (hope she doesn’t try to poison him).
That vase on the upcoming cover – does it have a southern provenance? I wonder how something of that shape would be made (Tano would probably know).
I enjoyed all the ‘pops’ and ‘booms’ in Betrayer, and could almost hear them.
Too long to wait for the next book, but then I suppose it must not be hurried because when authors do that it can result in a deterioration in the quality of a story, and ultimately in the death of a fine body of work. That’s happened to so many series, and it’s in no one’s interest to see it happen to this one. So far, the quality of this sequence is pretty consistent, which is amazing given how many titles have been published to date.
I have the last three still to read. I agree, Sapphire, that you get more out of the series, reading them back to back. I’m starting Conspirator.
I have the third trilogy on my Nook, and all the rest in hard cover, although I first bought them in MMP format, which I loathe. The earlier novels weren’t available in HC when I first happened on the series, nudged by another favorite author/friend, Janny Wurts. So I bought the MMP’s first, and recently bought them in used Hard covers, all in very good shape. I was glad to find them. I do wish the publisher would make all the books available in eformat, though, as that’s now my preferred reading format. It’s so easy to read/carry around/search for characters/places, etc. I buy all my fav books in both formats.
Oops – my second post of today was supposed to follow on from the first one.
I’ve now got most of the books in the series in 1st edition hardback form (except Pretender and Deliverer because I dislike those covers). I also buy them in paperback for travelling.
I do not intend to get an ereader (unless I happen to go to some remote place on the other side of the world for a long period of time, and I’ll only use it there). I’m buried in a computer for much of the working day and do not want to make use of technology for reading.
Also, I hadn’t realized that Tano and Algini actually appear as early as Foreigner. I remembered them as coming in about halfway through the sequence – but then there was a very big gap between the publication of the earlier books and later ones.
Banichi (especially) and Jago’s attitudes were very different towards Bren in Foreigner than they are in later books. Banichi was quite tough towards him at times, and one of them even whacked him across the face as far as I can remember. Is that because their manchi wasn’t to Bren at the time? I couldn’t imagine them behaving like that now…
Since I’ve just recently reread that book, I understand that Jago slapped Bren because he tried to rescue THEM, a reverse flow of manchi! That’s just not the atevi way. And in so doing, he put himself at risk and made their job nearly impossible.
I remember Tano and Algini being around all the time – but more distant than Banichi and Jago – except for when they were in space.
Banichi and Jago both had a go at Bren, for different reasons. Jago slapped across the face for the rescue thing he did. Banichi whacked him out of (I think) sheer exasperation/frustration, after he drank the tea and got poisoned. Banichi had what I would call “A moment”. Which involved railing at Bren about things not coming in plastic packages. It was rather like having my Dad yelling at me about the consequences of my actions, and I suspect that it was a similar thing going through Banichi’s head at the time. I actually found it somewhat endearing. XD (I do love Banichi’s character.)
Is there any deep dark reason why the last three or four books have not been published in audio format?
I didn’t know any of them had been published in audio. Where?
None have been published in audio format—except pirated versions.
I didn’t think so. I’ve looked. Too bad. They would be good in audio.
somebody making pirated audio versions??? weird! that IS a lot of fuss and work to do ..
I wish – it would be lovely to be able to buy CJ Cherryh on Audible ….. as long as the reader was really really good …
I know! Might as well read it aloud myself into a recorder and then listen to it. I’m sure I would put myself to sleep. 🙂
Sapphire, I think Banichi and Jago trust Bren now; they are generally confident that he really does know how to behave. I believe they would still physically intervene (maybe even a slap) if necessary. I agree with Sleo about the reverse manchi.
Could someone remind me where to see the new book’s cover?
CJ posted a link at the top of page 1 here.
My theory on why Jago slapped Bren was that as far as they were concerned, he was acting insane (for an Ateva) in a combat situation. It was either beat some sense into him and get him to behave or tie him up and carry him. PLUS whatever they did they had to convince Cenedi that they could keep Bren behaving so Cenedi didn’t shoot him for being the crazy man endangering Ilisidi. So, even though at that point in their relationship Jago and Banichi probably could have have worked it out verbally with Bren, they still had to convince Cenedi (who, if I recall correctly, slugged Bren FIRST for acting crazy) and his crew that he would behave.
Thanks, sleo, for the direction to the cover art. I spent a happy time there, watching his progress from idea to completion. I like the composition and enjoyed the hints about the book itself. He certainly is a talented artist. I did feel that the Atevi looked a little too human. I felt as if even I could read their facial expressions, and I shouldn’t be able to since I don’t have Bren’s experience and training.
Yes, that and they’re surrounded by Illisidi’s easterners who do not understand humans, but do viscerally feel the expression of man’chi in such movements. Ilisidi just made a very important policy-decision, to back Tabini, based on the conclusions she and Cenedi have drawn from Bren’s words and actions, among which his staying loyal to Tabini during the interrogation in the cellar helped convince them there’s no human conspiracy going on.
Now his action suddenly seems to imply he has man’chi to Banichi instead of to Tabini – Banichi with his southern accent, believed to have strong man’chi to Tabini but now seeming to have taken(stolen?) the loyalty of Tabini’s paidhi … those Easterners, including Ilisidi and Cenedi, who are not at all accustomed to the differences between humans and atevi, could very quickly start to see a lot of uncertainties about his loyalties, and possible conspiracies in Bren’s action.
That could make them quickly decide not to trust their earlier conclusions, but change sides again, get rid of Bren and his bodyguards and re-join the Eastern rebels. So Bren’s bodyguards have to convince them that Bren is acting un-atevi-like, as a human who does ‘insane’ things under fire, which do NOT signify man’chi but which they can keep under control.
Also, Banichi and Jago have known him at the aiji’s court, but have not been really closely associated with him for any length of time, as they were in the aiji’s bodyguard. At the time, they hadn’t yet seen him in circumstances that would tend to demonstrate his human tendency for two-way attachments, and liking people around him that he doesn’t have man’chi to, and taking risks for people he likes, as court life ’till then had been unexitingly administrative (viz. their reaction to his worried questions about his servants after the initial shooting: Jago clearly doen’t understand his motivation for asking).
It’s quite possible his reaction has shaken them too, at the visceral level on which atevi feel the pull of man’chi (that’s what I read into their reaction) – not that they doubt him, but they have to intellectually puzzle out and rationalize his behaviour after feeling that stab of ‘this isn’t right’, which in the circumstances and under all this pressure can make their reaction a bit more violent than it would be now.
And one more layer: Jago would have felt upset already, torn between the tie to her partner & father Banichi, and the man’chi-demands of guarding Tabini’s best interests making her leave Banichi to die in order to guard Bren and keep Ilisidi in the aishiditat. Bren solved that quandary for her, but if she’d allowed herself to be (too) grateful for that, that might imply something to her about her tie to Tabini not being strong enough (though she had already made the correct-for-man’chi choice)- I suspect that’s something she could not emotionally handle at that moment.
If you are talking about Foreigner, the first book in the sequence, I read it simply that Banichi and Jago didn’t really know Bren (nor he them), and that their manchi was not to him – as it is in the later volumes – but to Tabini.
I couldn’t imagine Banichi behaving towards Bren, nor Bren towards Banichi, as they did to each other in Foreigner, once they were pretty much tied to each other, as happens pretty early in later books. Certainly Bren and his bodyguards soon became completely at ease with each other. Bren pretty much cut ties to Mospheira, feeling much more at home with the Atevi than with humans (I think it is in volume 11 that he says he couldn’t ever go back to the island, his life and deepest connections now being completely tied to the Atevi).
I’ve been thinking about another thing – locations in the Foreigner sequence, which are so exquisitely depicted.
Shejidan reminds me most of all of Dubrovnik as I saw it about 20 years ago, with its red-tiled roofs and adjacent blue seas (it has probably much changed since then).
Malguri most closely resembles (for me) the prehistoric citadel at Hattusha, probably the capital of the Hittites in central Anatolia. We know very little about these people, since they did not leave behind many artefacts, and there are few real clues to how their civilization worked (Near Eastern Late Bronze Age, so some 3,500 years ago). But we do know that they were a massively fortified city-state (against what?), with a citadel backed by high rocks and so highly defendable. In the end they may have been defeated by strong tribal groups that (probably) lived around them (about which we know even less), who may have starved them to death.
Malguri is fascinating: I love the stories about ghosts on the giant lake, the way the place hasn’t changed for centuries, the descriptions of the interiors with their faulty wiring and pipes, and stuffed animal heads staring down at you from walls in the semi dark, contrasting with the extreme luxury of some of the living spaces, and the spectacular scenery in rain or snow.
Hattusha doesn’t resemble Malguri that closely (for a start, the climate in central Anatolia is generally hot and dry), but it is the most similar location I can think of.
Machigi’s homeland brings to my mind the equally ancient (and often romanticized) prehistoric civilization of the Minoans, about whom we also know so little, apart from the fact that they left behind exquisite objects and frescoes. There are no octopus vases in Machigi’s home, but his description of the tea service from a drowned island is reminiscent to me of the island of Thera, which was possibly home to a colony from Minoan Crete. The Minoans were also (probably) a seafaring people, and from a relatively small number of artefacts found on Late Bronze Age shipwrecks we know that they had links with Egypt, Mycenae, Cyprus, and perhaps further afield in Italy and central Europe through down-the-line trade.
Then as a contrast you have the space station, which is metallic and quite grim, among other things. The way in from the shuttle to the part with gravity is interesting…
I always think of the Highlands of Scotland for Malguri, especially for the interiors – ancestral highland chieftains’ eyrie …. full of stuffed animals (some of those edwardian lairds must have gone on safari ) and alarming electrics …
Yes, I agree about the interiors, though the surrounding countryside is not like Scotland’s – this is ‘wild’, but different from the craggy heights around Malguri.
I think many of the British aristocracy and nouveau riche used to go hunting on safari. There are numerous archival photographs showing such people surrounded by dead animals – docile beasts like antelopes as well as carnivores – that they or people who worked for them had so courageously shot. I guess the more dead animals they could fit into the photograph, the more powerful they felt it made them look.
It’s a practice very much frowned upon today – in Britain if not in many other parts of the world.
Actually, I’m talking rot (as is my wont). In Britain people still engage in hunting, though it is generally frowned upon. However, it certainly does not happen on the scale that it used to. It was a part of European tradition – my grandfather hunted and owned hunting dogs, but that was a long time ago…
Sorry – off topic. Will now cease my blathering.
Lol—in America many people fill their larder with the autumn hunt, still. We never did, though. And in some areas near big hunting, the local stores have huge, tall as a man, stacks of ammo. I look at them nervously, thinking that if somebody runs into them, we could all go out in a blaze of glory.
I recall driving to visit a friend in a rural (very!) community and the neighbors were dressing a deer hanging from a large tree in the front lawn.
That was a bit much…in a town.
In Britain, when there were still rural farming communities about, the fox hunt was a cause for celebration for the whole local population. Now, however, hunting is just an opportunity for the nouveau riche to show off and annoy those who disagree with killing for pleasure. On some estates, they actually release Wild Boar purely in order to shoot it, which I find pretty vile. Pheasants are still released for hunting (an old tradition, like fox hunting).
I purposely don’t go to countries where wild animals – including rare species – are hunted or kept in captivity for sale in markets, which thus rules out South-east Asia, China and many other travel destinations for me.
Again, OT, but you drew me into replying. 🙂
My husband hunts every fall and we are always glad to have
the venison in the freezer. The animals he shoots are
always used for food. The deer are so plentiful that
they are an extreme hazard to motorists and they are
a frustrating and expensive plague to farmers,
fruit growers with orchards, and home gardeners like us.
Deer have collided with our cars 6 or 7 times and the same is
true for many people in the area. That is
expensive and dangerous. The deer hunting restrictions have
been eased over the last decade, but they are still too plentiful.
This is how I feel, but I certainly respect that
others may not agree with me.
CJ, did you have a landscape in mind when you wrote about Malguri? I imagine the US could provide some similar craggy heights above lakes!
Actually, for the approach to Malguri, I confess I was thinking more of Mycenae, a long hill of faintly gold rock, and really ancient stonework. Walking up to it takes determination.
But I borrowed the lake from Scotland. 😉
Yes, that also makes sense, CJ. It is similar, though different from both places. Mycenae would have had a hot climate, for example…
I visited Mycenae long ago, on an art tour with other students from my high school, and remember the long hot afternoon, and how glad we were to momentarily be out of the sun inside the beehive tomb (“Treasury of Atreus”).
My grandmother passed away earlier this year. The farmhouse she and Grandpa had restored in the 20s had the same Malguri antiquated electrics (fabric wrapped, around porcelain insulators!), and a foundation of fieldstones the size of sofas. The farm itself was on the side of an Appalachian valley, looking down into a ‘holler’. Maybe as a sample of an outbuilding for the estate…!
we climbed over the fence, they shut the site in the middle of the afternoon – so we went in at dusk. I don’t remember much more than the big gateway, and all the hotels on the road leading up, with famous names from Homer … and the big hill at the back of it …
Hello all! I’ve finally read all of the Foreigner posts and have greatly enjoyed the lively discussion! I’m new here, but not to Ms. Cherryh’s writing. I consider her shelf in my local library to be the brightest spot in the entire building. 🙂
In the interest of having a little fun, I’m posting some confessions…
Raise your hand, if …
…you have had to quell the urge to say “nandi” in a polite situation…
…you find yourself arranging flowers, or furnishings, and wondering if the arrangement is felicitous. You stick with multiples of three, just to be safe!
…you are at work or in a committee meeting and suddenly realize that there are those at the table NOT in your man’chii…
…you read/listen to/watch the world news report and LONG for a real-world Bren Cameron, who is not worried more about getting re-elected, or about what his big-money supporters want from him, than he is about doing what is right for the long-term stability of the situation. We so need a Middle East Pahdi right now!
…you are secretly in love with Banichi although you know you’d be scared to death if you ever met him face to face!
🙂
oh! I am going to practise secretly doing all that now! 😀
and you are absolutely right about needing a middle east Pahdi ….
What with the tea, the flower arrangements, the porcelains, the brocades, gongs, some of the names, and the social arrangements with lords, merchants and the common folk–not to mention that the Assassins Guild acting sort of like a samurai class–,I’ve always imagined the atevi courts and households as vaguely Japanese in some time back before Westerners got a good toe hold in. As a matter of fact, I’ve thought that the advent of the Mospheiran humans is analogous to the opening of Japan to Western influences.
The forests and the grasslands I’ve seen as similar to the American West.
Now I must google these sites you-all are mentioning. . .
Rigeldeneb: I must say I don’t specifically identify Atevi culture with any human one, past or present, though there may be a kind of ‘recognition’ when it comes to some objects, behaviours (e.g. Japanese politeness and ceremony) and locations, for example.
Quite an achievement for an author, to create an entire civilization like that…
With the snow and ice, I more easily see Malguri as Scotland than a hot climate, or a desert climate. I’ve been to Mycenae and can see the stone buildings, but I would be more comfortable imagining it as like Scotland or Northern China… some of the ancient stone work there… or even Afghanistan or Nepal near the Himalayans, although the mountains aren’t described as being that high.
I can see Malguri as a castle; I’ve been to Harlech, which is perched high up over the coastal plain (which would likely have been shallow water when it was built). Climbing up the hill to the main gate….