I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
I’ve never heard of M.A. Foster, but I too like Whelan’s Faded Sun cover (the one he did for the bind-up quite recently, rather than just for Kutath, which I haven’t seen, unless this cover was reused for the bind-up). It is very spare and simple, yet dramatic. He has also done some nice covers for a few of Anne McCaffrey’s books.
I find Whelan’s humans a bit stiff sometimes, e.g. on the Chanur covers, which are terrific in their depiction of aliens.
Yes, I think Ilisidi looks just right on Whelan and Lockwood’s covers.
I just wish the forthcoming cover pictured Machigi in particular with more chiselled, typical Atevi features (Lockwood did get the Atevis’ features right on the cover of Deceiver). The woman in virginal white also doesn’t look very Atevi to me. I always imagine Atevi women appearing relatively powerful and dangerous rather than pretty, even in court dress. An elegant tunic-type outer garment over fairly fitted trousers of some kind, perhaps made of silk, would seem more appropriate. (Long dark garments with ornamentation, like those Ilisidi wears on the covers, seem just right for powerful elderly Atevi women.)
Off the cover topic, I’m confessing a fannish moment.
I’m reading “Invisible Giants; The Empires of Cleveland’s Van Sweringen Brothers”, by Herbert H. Harwood Jr. The “Vans”, who built Clevelands’ iconic Terminal Tower and the suburb in which I live, were also deeply involved in railroads. Reading a discussion of 1920’s-era machinations to consolidate railroad companies and routes, I thought ‘Bren would’ve been right at home with this. . .’
🙂
OK I’m almost embarrassed to say this, but here goes:
I just finished reading Foreigner for the first time.
That’s right, of CJ’s probably the biggest and best selling series (approaching what…15 books now?), I had read absolutely nothing. I really avoided this series for a long time because I didn’t want to get sucked into something I knew I probably would not be able to stop reading. 2 or 3 books in a series? No problem.
I was really nervous. The 10th Anniversary paperback sat on my shelf for what seems ages taunting, tempting, scaring me to death.
But I finally gave in a week ago and could not stop, except for going to work, much to the annoyance of my wife.
But I must say, it was GREAT! As soon as I finished I immediately grabbed Invader and dove in head first.
All my hopes and fears are realized. It’s shaping up to be an amazing series, SO exciting, but I’m sucked in. I now have 12 more books to purchase, because I never borrow a Cherryh book, I always have to purchase.
You should persevere – it’s well worth it. Although I have favourites (e.g. Explorer), the standard of all the many books in the sequence is very high and consistent. Pretty amazing, really. They have kept me engaged again and again (and again). Every time I read them I find new things in them that I haven’t noticed before.
Most authors who try to produce a lengthy sequence start failing after just a couple of books (e.g. Dan Simmons and his Hyperion Cantos). Even Bujold’s Vorkosigen novels have slipped after a lengthy sequence that was pretty good, clever and funny, though very different in style from any of CJ’s work. The latest title is a mere shadow of the strong Barrayar or the Vor Game – perhaps it’s something to do with the fact that the main character is now married (and thus ‘finished’ – nothing more to prove or achieve).
Something has been puzzling me for a while. Why does that navigation device sent down by the station (one of many dropped onto the mainland) move around like a robot. Is it under someone’s control, or an artificial intelligence of some kind? I thought it was a stationery device?
(Can’t remember the volume in which this incident occurred – it was one of the latest ones, featuring a shoot-out with Bren and the hostile southern Atevi.)
The thing is capable of movement: it was a plan by Lord Geigi to establish bases that could reposition themselves and serve as communciation relays for a further infrastructure that could be soft-landed, to support opposition to Murini. Lord Geigi could have declared himself aiji, and that would have been a next step in getting opposition organized to toss Murini out, but it wasn’t what Geigi wanted to be.
I see – thank you for the explanation. The way it was described, it seemed almost as though it was exercising free will. (I was never quite clear as to how these mysterious objects worked, or what their concrete purpose was, apart from improving communications held by the Assassins Guild.)
Would it reposition itself in order to avoid trouble (i.e. the shoot-out in this case)?
So presumably for the purposes of stability on the mainland, Geigi would have had no option but to declare himself aiji if Tabini had been killed, even though he didn’t want the job?
He would have. And hoped for a candidate he could turn it over to. He really likes administrative work, and doesn’t mind exercising authority, but the whole ceremonial and social freight that goes with the aijinate, plus handling all the court cases that pop up on citizens’ right of appeal, just makes him break out in a cold sweat. Geigi likes his table, and while that’s sorely limited in orbit, he does like the informal importance he enjoys, the respect of numerous clans, and the ability to get some leisure time once the routine is done. Tabini’s spare time is scarce.
Thank you again, CJ. That is more or less what I thought. I also imagined that Geigi is interested in the sciences (e.g. those practised on the station), as well as the joys of the table, far ahead of running the mainland.
It did pass me by, though, that he was responsible for the devices dropped from orbit, and that he would have taken over from Tabini had he not survived the coup. I shall have to pay attention to this aspect of things on my next run through the relevant books.
@Sapphire – given that the atevi women who get 90+% of the “screen time” in the books are ‘Sidi-ma and Jago-ji, it’s natural enough to forget that more ordinary atevi women exist. Consider that a certain percentage of women in any given court (Malguri, Shejidan, Atageini, Taiben, etc.) WILL be socialites, not authority figures. Okay, maybe not in Malguri. 😉 Same for the menfolk.
@CJ – eeek, I am now contemplating what may happen when (not if) atevi disassemble and start trying to reverse-engineer these telephone-botiin!
Speaking of Atevi women, I have a question about manchii and babies. How would one describe the emotions of a mother-child bond? And the manchii flows from the baby TO the parents, right? Until the age of 7, when a stronger bond is purposely sought for the child? (the family decides which “side” of the family will get a stronger influence?).
In “normal”, average atevi homes, are questions of manchii ever a problem…and is there any similarity with the struggles we human parents have with our teens?
(I apologize in advance if this question has already been posed – I have read the entire thread, but not the entire site…as of yet! )
🙂
It will be posed in greater detail in upcoming books, perhaps. But the parent child bond persists an indefinite period of time…not quite what humans experience, perhaps but definitely productive of fierce protective instincts. Many atevi relationships end with the birth of a child, that being the reason for the marriage contract, and the child goes with the contracted parent. The question of to which clan the child will have man’chi is an important one, and starts with where the child was born. The birthplace is traditionally how the attachment will run, and the parent in that place will be the first focus of that instinct as it develops. The whole clan takes responsibility for the child, who is theirs. The parent is honored for that reason, and will usually undertake to bring up the child. The departing parent is equally welcomed back into his/her own clan as having contributed mightily to ties which are valuable to the clan. It’s recognized there’s a certain sense of loss on the part of a parent who has parted with a contract child: cultural and ritual observances acknowledge that fact and offer compensatory respects—often including being asked to participate in other households as aunt or uncle to other children, and being given privileges of kinship and high rank within the clan hierarchy. It’s not just the lords who do contract-marriage, else there’d be inbreeding over time…but…there are subclans which complicate that picture, and neighbor clans with whom contracts are more frequent, which maintain ‘visiting ties’ and kinships in a very complex pattern of quasi-aunts and quasi-uncles: you’ll have noted the terms ‘uncle’ and ‘aunt’ are somewhat loosely applied. The ones most likely to be asked to entirely abandon a child once born are the political and economic elite.
Thank you CJ! This helps a lot, especially when wondering what happened to Jago’s Mother, (I have often wondered what sort of person she is/was and what happened to her…) and, of course, I found myself wondering how Cajeiri could be handed off to his great grandmother at so young an age – didn’t it drive his parents crazy? And what kind of fine print did Ilisidi manage to get into the contract that allowed for her to get such a high level of control over the heir? Of course, events at the time played a huge part in keeping Cajeiri away from “home” but, as a Mom who is fiercely protective of my own children, I kept feeling sorry for Cajeiri’s parents. (probably as dangerous a notion as the whole salad thing!) …
It is also occured to me that Cajeiri’s upbringing might be exactly what is expected – since his is aiji level (the top of the pyramid, is how I imagine one would map man’chi) he is pushed out of the nest early to develop his own levels of those who look to him. To coddle him and keep him safely closed in would might be viewed as almost ..well, abusive??
of course the ruling classes in medieval society, including the lower echelons, farmed their children out, they all went to be lady’s companions or pages and squires in older, I think if I am not imagining it, more noble families, from quite a young age, which meant they had powerful sponsors and could up their position if they were seen to be worth it. the whole nuclear family thing in our western society is very recent.. after all, our Katherine Roet/Swynford lived with the royals as a youngster, she was a cradle rocker to start with, and then a sort of governess.
Closely linked to the above discussion is the question of birth control. The Atevi seem to exercise control over their population very well within the system as explained by CJ. It is unlikely that they need to resort to any form of actual control, since they do not appear to breed in an uncontrolled way and have hordes of children, as do many humans.
What mechanisms are in place to ensure that the island population of alien humans is kept under control, I wonder?
Population control and sexual continence. . .I’m reminded of the conversation in C.S. Lewis’s Out of the Silent Planet that touts the advantage of a species that is “naturally continent, naturally monogamous”–such a species does not have to concern itself with population pressures. Instinct takes care of that matter.
Pity we poor humans. According to Lewis’s Malacandrians, we are “bent.”
Do Mospheirans have rejuv, I wonder–which would make them long-lived and add to the population issue. (CJ, is rejuv part of the Foreigner universe?) Would rejuv have been sufficiently important to the colonists that, along with seeds and tools, they made sure that they took with them the capacity to generate this drug or procedure? Since they were in a power struggle with the Pilot’s Guild, would they have been permitted to access that technology?
It seems to me that a culture sufficiently advanced to reverse the aging process must also have managed a solution to our ability and inclination to breed so incontinently.
On the subject of atevi parent/child relationships: so Banichi was probably the contracting parent and raised Jago? Is it ordinary or extraordinary for a parent and child to become partners in the Guild? And is this part of ‘Nichi-ji’s and Jago-ji’s running joke about who is protecting whom?
Well, now that that can of supposition has been opened. . .how old is Jago and has she ever been contracted, had a child, is expected someday to have a child. .. Has Banichi given her siblings or half-siblings? Do members of guilds contract mostly within their guilds, or would contracts within other guilds provide advantages of contacts and alliances?
Just asking. . .
@Rigel, ISTR rejuv causes sterility… right? (Time for another re-read! Dang!). That’s, of course, if rejuv exists in the Foreigner ‘verse. Interesting dynamic, annit? Only the rich & powerful (or Mazianni pirates) can afford rejuv, and it makes them sterile–though of course with tissue banks, that really doesn’t keep them from procreating, either.
JCrow9–I do believe you are correct: rejuv causes sterility (though I suppose that by the time most women reach the age for rejuv, they’ve already gone through menopause), and only the rich can afford it.
I’ve noted in a number of stories, not just in the Alliance/Union universe, that an artificially extended life is accompanied by sterility. An exception is CJ’s Serpent’s Reach, wherein the life science of the alien majat have created the very long-lived but fertile Kontrin from human stock. It’s as if we believe that postponed death must be balanced by an inability to naturally conceive new life. Which would, of course, mitigate population pressures.
Non-human immortals, such as elves, do not appear to suffer the infertility problem. Is this recurring motif our recognition that, as humans, we are supposed to die, and that when we circumvent that very basic characteristic of our species, we believe we must pay a price?
(I’ve also noted that these long-lived types–vampires, Kontrin, the immortals in the Highlander series, for example, sure don’t seem to be particularly interested in preserving life! Whole lot of blood-letting going on.)
Here’s a question: Bren is such an extraordinary person, and some of his mathematical and linguistic genius must have a genetic basis. Also, it looks unlikely that he will procreate. Should he be asked to contribute genetic material to a Mospherian genetic pool (Cameron’s Children!)?
Also–how genetically homogeneous have the human spacers become in their years of exile in space?
Since I’m only in Invader I don’t know if this question is covered in upcoming books. But going along Rigeldeneb’s line of thinking… are human and atevi dna compatible? Could there be, or is there already secretly, a mixed race child? Would it be possible for Bren and an atevi female, like Jago, to produce a child?
You know, Rigel, it has occurred to me in the past that judging by the characters and behaviour of many of the humans, the human population actually seems to have regressed in terms of intelligence. Perhaps the gene pool was too small and there has been too much interbreeding within it?
This does not apply to all the humans, of course: Gin and Lund, and Jase and the other captains on the ship, are somewhat more intelligent than the others we’ve met. But on the whole the humans are by no means the sharpest tools in the box.
Bren may be some kind of anomaly, also thrown up through interbreeding. He is clearly a genius by any standards.
I don’t get the impression that any of the humans practice rejuv in this universe – though they do in the Alliance-Union world.
I wonder what the average lifespan of Atevi is?
By the way, who pays the Atevi for the work they are doing on the space station/ship (the labour and materials), and for the sweeties, etc? If the humans on the station do, then how? (I might have missed the point of this matter somewhere.)
Wait, are you living in the same world I am? Sorry, got a flash of “People of Walmart” as I read your post. Trust me, if you’ve never seen the you-tubes, its NOT pretty. I think the Mospheiran and ship populations really do represent slices of a typical human population, with mostly middlings just muddling along, a few genuine geniuses sparkling at one end of the spectrum, some dullards at the other end, and a handful of turds floating around.
I’m quietly enjoying this conversation. 🙂
I just read L.E. Modesitt jr.’s latest blogpost, and it ties in so very neatly with Sapphire and Weeble’s discussion I just wanted to link to it here, if that’s allowed.
I must say I don’t feel at home among his commenters, but he himself has some good and thought-provoking posts up on his blog.
It’s at http://www.lemodesittjr.com/2011/08/09/reading-and-%e2%80%98rithmetic-%e2%80%9cabilities%e2%80%9d/
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About the rejuv and Atevi longevity, I don’t think rejuv is ever mentioned in the Foreigner universe, and people (e.g. Bren’s mom) seem to live to normal-for-humans sort of ages. If rejuv exists it will have a large impact on any human societÿ and I expect we would have heard something about it before now.
I remember a long time ago on this blog CJ said something about Atevi lifespans being generally a bit longer than the human norm, in relation to a question about Ilisidi’s age. IIRC she was in her 90s, but Atevi norm for dying of old age was close to 120, so she might still be with us for quite a while yet. As my memory for numbers is notoriously bad I’m not sure about this, but I really really hope so! CJ?
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And yes, Atevi parent-child and family dynamics is an aspect that I’d love to see explored more, and with the recent developments and CJs hint above I have high hopes for the future books!
I’ll have to read the Modesitt blogposts in more detail once I have time during the weekend. However, I must point out that I had no idea that the expression ‘There’s no such thing as a free lunch’ is attributable to Heinlein…
TANSTAAFL in The moon is a harsh mistress by Heinlein, a sort of recognition word for the moon-based rebels. It took me a little while to recognise this as the acronym of “There aint no such thing as a free lunch”, which is a core belief of a principal character, as the translation is not spelled out and it doesn’t occur full-length very often.
RAH certainly popularized the phrase, but TANSTAAFL predates Mistress but decades. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL. And, yes, the full phrase is spelled out a couple of times in the novel.
Thank you for that – I had no idea. The acronym also passed me by (or I may have forgotten all about it because it’s a long time since I read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress). 🙂
(Same as post above, sorry.)
Since I’m only in Invader I don’t know if this question is covered in upcoming books. But going along Rigeldeneb’s line of thinking… are human and atevi dna compatible? Could there be, or is there already secretly, a mixed race child? Would it be possible for Bren and an atevi female, like Jago, to produce a child?
Nope – that’s been ruled out. They are not able to interbreed. Quite pleasing, really, since I wouldn’t want a brat running around the place. The heir has been quite enough.
I’m rereading the entire sequence slowly. Am into Explorer – must say I really miss the characters and actions and interactions on the ship/station. I’m at the bit where Bren pretends he is a dunce – hilarious and very well described…
Speak for yourself, Sapphire 🙂 I’m one who would like to see a little Brago (:)) walking around!
I know what you mean, Sleo. 🙂 I love the relationship between Jago and Bren, but at the same time I wouldn’t like to think that the Atevi species could be diluted by the introduction of human blood.
What I would like to see is more humour in Banichi’s relationship with Bren, as we witnessed fairly on in the sequence. Some of Banichi’s comments were so amusing. Now the relationship between Banichi and Bren seems more distant and business-like. I’d also like to see developments in Bren’s relationship with Jago, with Bren perhaps tuning in to what her actual ‘feelings’ are vis a vis their relationship…
have to say, it was unbelievable enough having the human/peacekeeper baby on Farscape, but Atevi/human – CJ does keep things within the bounds of scientifically possible … if you can call FTL possible.
Hi, Julian.
Late in the Farscape series, It Was Revealed that Peacekeepers were “built” from human stock. So not so surprising they could interbreed.
yes, I know that, but it was a bit of a fixup, and baby really did NOT help the story … it all became a bit daft IMHO.
I can’t be the only person to wonder what would happen if Jago wanted a child, can I?
I can’t see that Bren would stand in her way on something like that, but it would be interesting to have the two of them raise a child together if Jago made a contract marriage and kept the child. Cajeiri’s close, but not “theirs”. I honestly can’t see a human child being brought up on the mainland, but … hmmm.
Well, interspecies breeding is scientifically possible. There are many similarities between humans and atevi. A possibility? I guess we’ll have to wait and see what C.J. has in mind. 🙂
Jago hasn’t seemed very maternal to date.