I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
Can’t say I blame her, Sleo. 🙂 Not everyone feels the need to have children. I think CJ has ruled out interspecies breeding (had it been possible it would surely have taken place before the War of the Landing, when humans and atevi interacted more closely than they do at the time when this story takes place).
For me personally, introducing children into the story would be very off-putting. I read these books as SF – for the action, character development particularly when it comes to the aliens, and the SF elements – so I am not really interested in human-type family relationships. There are plenty of books that deal with these if people are interested in them.
It is possible that Jago may at some point go off and have a sprog with another atevi (thus causing a lot of stress for our Bren), but I doubt whether she would bring it up herself. That would seem pretty ludicrous, given her lifestyle.
I feel Bujold’s Vorkosigen books lost a lot of oomph after Miles got married and settled into ‘marital bliss’. It’s something I’ve noticed in other books. It seems as though settling down somehow weakens characters – as though they have nothing left to prove, have to play it safe and it’s the end for them…
oh domestic bliss and adventure are a very difficult mix to pull off – look what happened to Farscape – it descended into farce. the journey for the hero involves killing the dragon, saving the world, and getting the girl and then that’s it! I am sure some of the starwars spin off novels, some of which were pretty good, did manage some domestic bliss with adventure .. but I can’t bring to mind an actual example.
Burroughs managed to keep up the pace after the hero gets the girl and a bunch of kids. He even had adventures with the kids and grand-kids. Of course, he never showed John Carter or Tarzan at home raising the little heroes-to-be.
Lindsay Davis’ Marcus Didius Falco series does a good job of it, but I agree… I can’t quite see Jago as a mom… unless she took a couple of years off, or unless she and Bren had a few full time nurses. Of course, Ilisidi could always do it. She raises a mean kid, 😀
We will see how Ms. Cherryh treats the coming 2nd offspring of Tabini. While I too have difficulty seeing Jago as a Mother, it would be interesting if Bren was obligated to raise an orphan of someone important. Of course Bren and company are too busy just staying alive.
Jago as a mother? I, too, can’t see it. There’s a reason that babies and adventure go together poorly: it is hardly fair to the poor, vulnerable infant to be slinging it around while dodging bullets, or hiking it over dangerous terrain, or exposing it to the notice of assassins and what have you. And leaving the tyke at home just creates one more nidging distraction for harried heroes (“I’ve got to escape my enemies–and I wonder if my little darling is teething yet. . .”).
I’m willing to wait until all the hullabaloo settles down, a la J. K. Rowling (finally saw “Deathly Hallows 2 yesterday). Harry and crew don’t settle down to domestic bliss until it is safe(r) for them to raise children.
On the other hand, dare I bring up the Spy Kids series, in terms of mixing domesticity and adventure? Perhaps that series implies that this mix works best as farce?
As I said in an earlier post, I’d like to find out more about how Banichi “got” Jago and how their mutual membership in the assassins guild affects their father/daughter relationship–if it does. Given the way manchi works, their blood relationship may be of less weight than their shared manchi. I can see how the contract that resulted in Jago might be woven into the plot somehow. . .don’tcha just love all the possibilities proposed by loose ends? Politics on the atevi world are sufficiently convoluted that the most obscure connection might suddenly become important.
Cajeiri and the 2nd off-spring are going to be more than enough children for this story, I think. Any child of Tabini and Damiri and any descendant of Illisidi is likely to be hell-on-wheels–and I wonder who the second child will be fostered to?
Yeah, But…. we have to remember, NOT humans, Ateva. Manchi might make Jago (oh, heck, maybe even Algini or Tano might get the urge-Banichi has already done it!) feel bringing an infant into the househould would be appropriate as a way to ease the stress of the whole ‘heir for the boss’ issue. I have a sneaky suspicion the household staff would be thrilled to raise the kid if Bren and his aishid had to go running around the universe, and to a mind that runs on manchi, the household IS family and a place of safety. I don’t expect Jago to become a mother, and I definitely don’t see her as a MOMMY (“We are NOT the indulgent side of staff!” or whatever that line was to Cajiri) but a child in the household is not outside the realm of possibility. I doubt it will be something that takes major screen (page?) time though, unless Bren ends up fostering Cajiri’s sibling!
Ugh. God forbid…
Changing the subject somewhat, I’ve just finished re-reading Explorer. I would SO much like to see Narani and Bindanda (sp?) again. They’ve been left on the space station and were really upset about this. They did so much for Bren. I’d also like to see Jase, Sabin, Ogun, Kaplan, Gin and others – and of course am waiting with baited breath to see what happens with the Kyo (and those ‘Kif’ in the background). Wonder if Bren and his atevi will go haring off to another planet at some point. Would be fascinating. A subject for a lengthy and complex tome, like Explorer, methinks…
Now isn’t that an interesting thought? What would a kif’s reaction to an ateva be? A quick check to be sure his weapon are in place? 😉
Weeble–point taken–NOT human but atevi, and the household is family.
Cajeiri is such a precocious child in such an unusual situation that I don’t think his experiences as “child in the household” can be considered typical even for atevi.
Sapphire, Explorer is my favorite (so far) in the entire series, followed by Invader. Both have the element that I like so much in science fiction (and some fantasy and anthropology) and that is the contact between disparate cultures, atevi, Mospheiran human, ship human, station human and Kyo, in this case. What a mix. CJ is so good at evoking the excitement, peril and wonder of intercultural contact.
The raids on the station are a riot, demonstrating atevi finesse with violence, Bren and Barnhart’s cool, and Gin’s ingenuity. The ship’s crew shows up well in this book.
I also like Explorer in that it shows Bren in his role of translator and linguist. I found the scene where he is working with Prakuyo over prepositions to be as exciting as the raid to free Prakuyo. I teach first-year writing at the college level, and my students have startled me with some unorthodox preposition use. This scene explains why these seemingly simple two and three-letter words conceal immense complexity.
Rigeldeneb: I think I like Explorer the most for precisely the reasons you do. I love the way Bren and Barnhart go in with the atevi – their professionalism and control, the way everyone works together, the bangs, the ideas (like the ‘chain’ of refugees going into the ship and the atevi with the wounded rushing past) and the tension in the story. And yes, that book has the elements you describe, and which I like most of all in science fiction, all beautifully woven into an incredibly vivid story.
For me, the second most favourite book so far is probably Pretender – especially that train journey to the capital CJ describes so well, with the old lords and the way Tabini reclaims his position. I haven’t re-read the book for a while (am about to do so), but still have this image in my mind of the shadow of the train showing up beside the track, with the top bristling with atevi and the flag upfront. It’s an incredible talent in an author to be able to summon up such details in a story and make them so memorable.
A setting I particularly like is Malguri (in the second novel in the sequence, I think, where Bren first meets the dowager). That is so vivid and Ilisidi is such an incredible character. I have a soft spot for those cuddly softies, the mechieti, as well, especially Nokhada. 🙂
Bren goes to Malguri and meets the dowager pretty soon after we meet him, in the first novel in fact. and you are joking about the cuddly softies?
Well, whichever novel it is, with regard to Malguri.
Cuddly, sweet-natured softies – that’s the mechieti, all right…
There seems to be a narrow target and broad view target for each of the foreigner novels titles so far:
Foreigner –> narrow: Bren (mostly in Malguri), broad: humanity on atevi world
Invader –> narrow: Hanks, broad: the Phoenix attached to the station
How am I doing so far?
Think I’m on the right track?
Care to fill in further?
With regard to Algini and Tano, can anyone explain why Algini’s manchi is to Tano? Would this not imply that Tano is more powerful than Algini, and might actually be the (well-concealed) guildmaster of the Assassins Guild?
Might not the fact that Algini and Tano were away on the space station for so long have been responsible for the mess the Guild got into, i.e. because the guildmaster was not on the planet?
All very interesting – I like those two characters very much.
Salads…
Kiloecho: an intriguing premise for the structure of the books. Let’s see. . . for Inheritor: narrow target–Bren and Jase’s relationship; broad view–the ship’s relationship with Shejidan and Mospheira, or “Humans jostle for power with alien cultures”. Precursor: narrow target–Bren establishes his presence and influence on the station; broad view–history, politics and secrets of the ship and its travels i.e. a window into the psyche of space-faring humans; Defender: narrow target–clarifying the ship’s ( really Bren’s) mission (Bren has a way of exerting his own–and Tabini’s, of course–spin on events, yes?); broad view–examining the approaches to problem-solving practiced by three cultures–ship humans, atevi and Mosphierans.
How am I doing so far?
Defender hints and Explorer makes clear that humanity in space, in the Foreigner universe, regards all non-humans as threat. The paranoia and pessimism of humanity seems not to have changed down the centuries–pity.
My copy of Defender is bristling with sticky notes sporting notations like “Mospheiran mindset” (“Kids think there’ll always be a new invention every week. That there’s a magic fix for every problem” Gin tells Bren) and “politics of atevi language” (Bren reminds himself of how the selection of pronouns–“royal we, self-deprecating one” and the familiar suffix -ji, rather than the respectful prefix nand, are used by Ilisidi to test or establish rank.) A really interesting book.
JCrow9–I imagine that an encounter between kif and atevi would be an instant display of weaponry on both sides. Kif play games of threat. Now, I am trying to imagine atevi reaction to mahendo’sat, those furry sapients who play practical jokes on other species.
Concerning many of the minor characters – it would be nice to meet some of them again. Ms. Cherryh does not create throw away characters nor are the secondary characters just one dimensional stock ones.
I’ve just found this site, and I can see that I’ve got some catching up to enjoy. If you’ll all pardon my newbie enthusiasm, I’ve got some questions I’d like to ask.
Will the Marid be building Ilisidi’s submarine? Machigi might be intrigued by the possibilities, I’m thinking.
Will Cajeiri’s friends on the station be watching Bruce Lee movies out of the archives, trying to be bodyguards, or are they studying hard to be advisors to Cajeiri? Are they trying to be like Bren, or like Banichi and Jago?
What will the Atevi do with their star ship? Will they build in-system ships to harvest the resources available? How long before they build a mining outpost, or whatever? Will they go out, or settle in? Maybe both?
Will Bren turn Najida into a vacation resort of some kind? I get the feeling that Najida could become an interesting place. An even more interesting place, I should say.
Does the fact that Banichi comes from Talidi province mean that he, and the rest of Bren’s aishid, has a hidden agenda? That one bothers me.
Will Tabini ever get to go fishing with his son?
I won’t ask more, for now. Sorry for getting carried away, but I love C.J. Cherryh, and finding this forum is a real treat. Thanks, in advance, for your tolerance.
Algini/Tano man’chi — it doesn’t mean Tano is more powerful, just more attractive ;). Seriously now, the hints we get of Algini’s assignment, in Consprator iirc, at the Guild meeting to settle things post-coup, indicate an essential man’chi — to the original Guildmaster? — was apparently dissolved, leaving Algini “free to pursue other man’chiin”. The particulars of his (still secret) assignment, which I take to be representing the Guild’s interests to the Lord of the Heaven’s household, would necessarily preclude him from giving man’chi to said household. But by declaring a man’chi to Tano (as a sort of “blood brother”?), he can declare an unmistakable allegiance to the house without violating the limits of his assignment. And with Tano addressing Bren as “aiji-ma” it’s pretty unmistakable.
Tano is certainly very attractive, though Algini is enigmatic as well as attractive. Those two, and Banichi, are probably the most alluring male characters. Oh, and Tabini as well – he is enigmatic, fine-looking and powerful, always an enticing combination in a male. 🙂
Your explanation is certainly plausible, though I like to think Algini was probably the Guildmaster, rather than some kind of assistant to him. After all, it was while Algini was away in space that the situation within the Guild deteriorated, perhaps because there was no one at the reins. It would thus make sense that he was the Guildmaster, and I think Bren guessed as much.
One other thing. I remember reading where Bren tells Tabini that everything’s on the table, as far as technology goes, but I still haven’t seen anything about the life sciences. Rejuv, cloning, and all the medical applications. Are the humans holding out, or were they never given that information, for their intended colony?
I find myself wondering when the Mospheirans will start raising pigs, chickens, and goats, assuming they’d survive an Atevi diet. Assuming the Atevi would put up with it.
Nowhere in the books that I have been able to spot is it written that the humans in this universe ever had rejuv or cloning. Perhaps it had never even been developed on the home planet (Earth)?
Given that the human population cannot expand indefinitely, either on the space station or on Mospheira, rejuv especially would be a foolish technique to implement.
(And I still cannot figure out whether the Atevi insisted on an agreement with the human population with regard to birth control. Given the way humans breed, their population would surely quickly expand beyond the space they may use.)
Sapphire,
I assume that the humans came from the same Earth as in the rest of sera Cherryh’s universe. Since their ship is faster than light, I also assume that these Earthlings are using technology from Cyteen, after Bok’s equation made that possible. Cyteen also had highly developed life sciences, including rejuv and cloning, as far as I know. I seem to remember silver haired rejuv characters from Earth in several of sera Cherryh’s stories, so I’m pretty sure they had their own rejuv process, at some point. Maybe they had their own rejuv, before Cyteen, but I’ll bet that’s where they got both FTL and rejuv. Union, which was also big on cloning. Azi might be too much for Earthlings, but I’d expect them to learn enough to be able to produce livestock from a kit of some kind. Since these humans were intended to colonize a station, not a planet, perhaps they didn’t get a livestock kit. On the other hand, such a kit shouldn’t be too bulky or expensive to include as standard equipment for pioneer colonies, just in case. It would sure come in handy for the Mospheirans.
The Mospheirans live in a much denser arrangement than the Atevi, judging by the impression I got when Bren and company were passing through the human city (forgot the name), freshly back from space, and on their way to crossing the strait in Toby’s boat. I don’t know if the humans are straining at the seams, population wise, but they surely will, at some point, if they don’t use birth control of some kind. They’ll also need efficient food production, given their limited real estate, even if their population is stable. That’s why I’m wondering if they’ll start raising livestock, regardless of the Atevi notions of Kabiu. Maybe modified by Kabiu. Free range ham and eggs?
I believe CJ did say that this was a completely different universe to the one that Cyteen fits into, with a different method of FTL, folded space instead of jump.
rejuv came from cyteen’s ecology and was specifically kept off Earth because of the consequences for overpopulation, as far as I remember. the rejuv characters were from the merchanter groups, and Union, where humans were scarce and cloning used to boost populations.
I really don’t think they had any sort of livestock kit. As an expedition intending to build a station, the space such a kit would take up on a crowded ship would be much better used for the third redundancy battery charger for the spare flashlights. Or maybe a stash of canned yams. Or allowing the colonists to each bring a spare change of undies. Livestock is just such an inefficient source of calories, I imagine they would have been left off the to-do list. The livestock kit itself might not be terribly bulky, but the REST of the stuff needed to pull off a terrestrial colony on an inhospitable world would really put the size of an emergency kit over the edge. It took the station 120 years before they could throw together a bootstrap colony on the Atevi world, and its really a fairly hospitable world, all things considered! Ok, admittedly they were doing other things first, but I think you can see what I mean.
At one point, Bren did specify that yes, the most complicated biological science stuff was almost on the table, but computers had to be completely transferred and accepted first, as they were really required to make the rest understandable. As far as the Mospheiran reproductive rate, the impression I get is that its pretty stable. It’s actually a demonstrated fact (at least on our Earth) that educated human women with access to birth control tend to choose smaller families, so its possible that the population of Mospheira is stable or only growing slowly.
So, I’m new both to the series and this website, but I read Foreigner, got addicted, and read the entire series in about 9 days. I’m a bit Atevi hazed now, but boy are these books good.
What I especially loved is how after a while you really start to get the bigger meaning behind little words and phrases, and the emotional punch of things becomes so much bigger.
That little scene in Pretender with Algini, where he calls Bren aiji-ma. I cried, and read the whole scene again a couple of times. Such a powerful moment, and all in that small word. I really love the whole relationship of Bren and his aishid, and how it slowly evolved from them having mostly man’chi to Tabini/Guild to Bren.
(Another heart-wrenching moment was when Bren left for the rescue mission in space, and hugged Tano and Algini goodbye, and they hugged him back.)
I think these little things are so powerful because in the earlier books we are completely immersed in Brens isolation and loneliness, and I think that that only started to shift in the same stages the man’chi of Jago and Banichi, and later Algini and Tano started to change.
Now that I’m on aishids and man’chi, anyone ponder how Tabini must have been quite the emotional wreck after his aishid completely died? What I get from Cajieri is that aiji’s definitely feel the need to have people in their man’chi, and that that emotional connection is very strong and deeply felt. How awful that must have been for Tabini, and I wish we’d got a bit more of pagetime on that upheaval. (But then Tabini is very close sexywise to Algini, who’s my number one, and I’ve quite missed him in these later books).
I too love those little moments with Algini (who is normally formal and serious) and others of Bren’s aishid – and tend to read them at least twice every time I come to them.
I do, however, hanker after Banichi’s sense of humour, which he displayed so well just before Bren got into the deeper relationship with Jago (from memory, this was in the third book in the sequence). One rarely sees this sense of humour nowadays – I know Banichi is ten years older now, but one’s basic character doesn’t change.
With regard to Tabini, it does state in one of the books that Bren thought Tabini had changed somewhat since the coup – he was a touch more edgy and/or gaunt, or something to that effect. It must have been terrible for him to have lost guards who had been with him since his childhood, like Edi.
You didn’t really read the entire sequence in nine days, did you? If yes, then suggest you read it again (and again), perhaps more slowly. One gets more of an insight into the story every time one reads it.
Uhm yeah, I went a little crazy, am not working at the moment, so I read them all in one go. (Which included frantic bookhunting in library, UBS and Amazon.) Like I said, I went a little crazy.
I’m a fast-reader, so I tend to reread books quite a lot, to catch up on details I missed on the first go. Definitely plan on doing that here.
I can see how Banichi seems to have become more serious, but I think that has mostly to do with being in one run of stress and conflict since they are back on Earth. It’s been a long time since there was some downtime.
With regard to Banichi becoming more serious due to stress and conflict, he was hardly in a peaceful and calm situation when he did display humour! (It was when they were running around on the coast getting shot at, and camping with Ilisidi.)
Also, I’ve always had the impression that members of the Assassins Guild thrive on their jobs – though of course they are bound to get physically tired sometimes, no matter how strong they are.
I’m glad I’m not the only one! I read all seventeen that are out now in seven days, while working full-time. I was a wee bit loopy with sleep-deprivation by the end of it, and sheepish, and so very satisfied.
/has just finished a second-read through with even more satisfaction
no doubt the stress of coping with Cajieri’s antics doesn’t help!
and here is some Banichi humour in Conspirator – page 119 – One is still not a salad he says wickedly and makes Bren laugh …. so not entirely missing. CJ is meticulous at keeping all these people in character …
Yes, salads come up from time to time in the books – even Algini mentions them in the same way that Banichi does and makes Bren laugh. However, in the earlier novel that I was alluding to Banichi was extremely funny not just once but quite a few times – for instance in the way he ribbed Bren with regard to Jago.
Five months to go until the next volume. A lonnnng time to wait, but shorter than it was in June. 🙂 Can barely wait. I also notice the upcoming book will be longer than the last volume, which is absolutely terrific.
I am working up to reading Betrayer …. in the middle of Conspirator just now … I started at the beginning again 😀
Just finished Betrayer. Most enjoyable. Thankyou CJ