I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
I have some questions about Atevi singing. You’ve mentioned a children’s choir so it stands to reason that adults sing as well.
Just guessing here, but I’d say that Atevi, being so large, have correspondingly larger vocal folds and therefore sing at a lower range than we smaller humans.
I’d say that Algini would sing our bass and that Banichi would sing our basso profundo.
I feel that Bren must be a true baritone, mid-range for human males, and would therefore be halfway between atevi male and female vocal ranges.
But all that is just supposition. Am I close?
Betrayer: the title. Is the ‘betrayer’ in fact Bren because he speaks out for Machigi, implying he has loyalties to several individuals (Tabini foremost, but also the dowager and now Machigi), as opposed to man’chi solely to Tabini in the atevi way?
Incidentally, I would really like to see Tabini and Machigi meet up. I hope nothing happens in the story to eliminate Tabini. I would rather see the heir disposed of than that, though he has become slightly more interesting since he has become preoccupied with his new Guards and is solving his problems with them.
I recently read a review suggesting that Geigi could become a threat. Apart from the fact that I rather like this character, I prefer to see the consolidation of atevi power rather than fractures within associations that would cause the civilization to become vulnerable and take steps backwards…
Just some ravings of a tired mind.
There are a LOT of betrayers in that book, Bren, Machigi to the rest of the Marid—maybe—Ilisidi to Tabini, and not even mentioning the rest of the problems.
Yes – thank you, CJ. That does make sense – and as Xheralt says, Bren didn’t really betray anyone, though he felt he might have done. That’s why I thought the book title might allude to him in particular.
Xheralt: I don’t agree that the actions of the Guild suggested betrayal, though. It was a splinter group of the Guild that ‘betrayed’ Tabini and those within his association (through actions that began quite a long time ago, outlined in previous books), but not the Guild as a whole. Also, the title ‘Betrayer’ is singular, implying that it alludes to a single individual rather than to a group.
Nand’ Spence, I will repeat here what I said @Shejidan; that I agree with you, and furthermore, if Bren were a tenor, the childlike aspects of his stature would be doubly emphasized, and atevi would have even more difficulty taking him seriously (or at least comment on it)
Sapphire-ji, while Bren was not entirely sincere in granting Machigi the title “aiji-ma” (as the role of negotiator required of him), I don’t think he actually betrayed anyone, and he took great care to make sure his aishid understood he wasn’t betraying the Association or Tabini by addressing Machigi thus. It seems that maybe the title referred to the actions of the Guild? And if so, do any prior titles also fit that pattern?
Hmmm. I thought Bren was checking with his own Aiji to see if they felt betrayed. CJ, I don’t see how Bren betrayed anyone, if you take the long view. That is, his actions seemed to be focused on finding the ultimate peace for Atevi. Perhaps Tabini will feel betrayed? Somehow I doubt it. I guess it could be considered a betrayal if Tabini takes the rigid view that he’s not supposed to call anyone else ‘aiji-ma’. I’m not sure.
Certainly there was lots of betrayal in the Guild, and in Marid, which was back stabbing Machigi. And there were little betrayals – Cajeiri’s supposed bodyguards – but they were only acting stupidly, not actually meaning to betray anyone.
He was. OTOH, there is moment by moment the question whose interests he was representing: Machigi’s, Ilisidi’s, or Tabini’s.
Most of the books are ambiguous in that way.
It seems to me that’s always been the case, ever since he went to visit Ilisidi in book one. At least in his own mind he often wondered if he was representing Tabini or Ilisidi. Now we’ve added Machigi to the mix. Perhaps he’ll get a new position as ‘special envoy’ or ‘international negotiator’. 🙂
Yes, exactly – and he was tearing himself up about the business of ‘divided loyalty’. To his way of thinking, though, I believe he is trying to act for the benefit of the whole atevi civilization, in that he wants peace to exist between the various factions. And he actually likes Tabini, Ilisidi and Machigi (though such a concept does not exist among the atevi), but if push came to shove, I believe (hope) his ultimate loyalty would lie with Tabini.
Another thing: I am still trying to get my head around the concept of ‘liking’ others in the atevi world. Sweet Tano sometimes seems to display affection towards others (e.g. Algini, Bren) in subtle ways, such as patting them on the back or leg. Tabini does a similar thing in Invader, when he pats Bren’s leg in passing. This seems to imply that there is some form of affection among atevi, but frustratingly I am unable to figure out how this works (and neither can Bren by the looks of it, though he observes it and questions it in his own mind).
Can one feel affection towards other individuals without ‘liking’ them? And is there more to man’chi than simply loyalty to a herd leader, or is there perhaps another concept applicable to the atevi (i.e. other than man’chi) that neither Bren nor we know about yet? The atevi are, after all, incredibly secretive about their personal lives, which no human has so far been able to figure out.
Atevi surely feel emotions other than man’chi. Atevi are attached to their children and their relatives and lovers, but man’chi, which goes upward is probably not the word for those attachments. CJ, will we be getting that vocabulary?
Also there is the lateral attachment of persons who share the same man’chi, most evident in Tano’s and Algini’s partnership. We have not been given a word for that lateral attachment either.
The issue for humans and atevi seems to be their getting some idea about what their emotional analogues are without making the mistake of thinking that an analogous emotion or behavior means humans or atevi are experiencing the same emotions or will react the same way.
Two human emotions analogous to man’chi are love and loyalty. All three of these emotions mean attachment and service. With humans, however, the emotion ideally goes both ways; with atevi the emotion goes in one direction only–upward.
In Invader we see how Bren and his ai’shid work with the possible confusion. Bren recognizes that his love for and loyalty to his guard will trigger his instinct to protect them. But he acknowledges that he will confuse his guard if he tries to do so. He makes an effort to control that instinct. Banichi and Jago find the notion of Bren moving to protect them perverse–man’chi downward is a perverse notion. However, they acknowledge that in a truly dire situation or if Bren panics, he may behave in a “crazy manner” and move to protect them. They understand that they must make an effort to accommodate the possibility of such craziness.
In Invader, Bren watches Tano and Jago welcome Algini back with pats on the shoulder. It just seems that atevi are not as touchy-feely as humans. I cannot, however, conceive of a species that cares for its young not developing some kind of protocol for personal contact rooted in that primary necessity of touching in order to care-for.
Very well put, Rigeldeneb. That’s approximately how I see the situation – and I look forward to Bren perhaps finding out more about the dimensions of atevi ’emotions’, as suggested in your first paragraph.
Care of young is related to procreation and expansion of the species in most animals (on our planet, anyway). However, the pats among adult male and female atevi would seem to suggest yet another kind of attachment, similar to human friendship, which is often the result of shared experiences, points of view in alignment, etc.
I think “lateral man’chi” is what is usually described as “association”. Problem is, association ALSO covers alliance-with-others, others whose man’chiin may not be quite as trusted. Maybe there should be separate words, or modifiers to “association” to segregate these elements.
We readers were also give a new form of the word in Betrayer, asi-man’chi, defined as “having man’chi only to one’s family”. Other forms of the word with a related prefix could possibly exist. I would contend that brothers, sisters, cousins, etc., don’t have man’chi to each other, they are strongly associated by their mutual (upward) man’chi to the household leadership. Jago’s relationship with Banichi, as an adult, is more like this than child-upward-to-parent.
Although, what a human would call being in love, wanting an extended intimate relationship (more than a candle or three), is a man’chi of sorts. But consider that atevi can give man’chi to an abstract (preserving the historicity of Malguri, for example). An abstract view of human love is defines it as “that condition where another’s well-being is more important than one’s own” — and that is an abstract that even an atevi could agree to, or even feel one’s self. And maybe they do, for close family.
Oh, you’re right–association is the word for lateral attachment. Association does not have the biological imperative of man’chi; it is a thing that can be negotiated. What are the human analogues for association. . . treaty/friendship/contract/mutual interests?
One day we may find out what the kyo have.
The ability to give man’chi to an abstract or a place was one of the common points of human/atevi emotion that Bren recognizes in Foreigner and discusses with Illisidi. Bren’s appreciation for Malguri seems to have been instrumental in convincing Illisidi to take him seriously.
Yes, it seems very logical to me that man’chi and association both exist in multiple forms and degrees.
I halfway expect Atevi, being such a precise sort of language, to have qualifiers for these forms and degrees. On the other hand, a person’s man’chi is such an extremely private and personal thing, and a ‘taboo’ subject for conversation even among very close associates, that there may not be any qualifiers, as a built-in protection of that privacy.
It’s been said in the books that a single person can have several different man’chi, and if a person’s man’chi collide it’s a painful test of personality, and not even the person himself may know what turns out to be (the strongest bond, and thus) the biological imperative.
I’ve always thought that people might, for instance, have ‘lateral’ (asi-)man’chi to their siblings or other family members, as well as regular vertical man’chi to the head of their house, which is supposed to be the strongest man’chi within the family setting.
For people like the assassins, the man’chi to their head of household can be superseded by their man’chi to the person they’re guarding, but I get the impression this will generally happen by following the tree-of-man’chi upward, and not by stepping completely outside their own tree, unless they suddenly become extremely impressed by a potential leader at an impressionable age.
Then this same person might also feel Malguri-style man’chi to the ancestral home, and as we saw for some of the people working in the spaceship-building effort, a similar tie to their workplace, or at least to (their part in) the idea and the effort symbolized by their job.
The sibling-style ‘lateral’ man’chi translates very well to the bond between friends and partners (e.g. in Assassin teams), the tie between people who share the same upward man’chi and spend a lot of time together working toward a common goal.
It also works for non-family playmates and being-part-of-a-team bonds, such as Cajeiri had with his friends on the spaceship, though he’d expect that within the team some upward man’chi will also flow to the leader of the team, as should be happening with his aishid.
So this one person has a lot of different ties-to-others, some strong enough to be called man’chi, and several of lesser strength, usually called associations.
As long as there is no conflict between the ultimate goals of your main bonds, this is OK.
But if for instance the bond to your head-of-household father weakens, due to a prolonged absence, while you build a close relationship with a favorite uncle; and then dad seems to be working against the family’s best interests (in your view), while uncle promotes them; then these two important man’chi can change their respective strength, and in a showdown it suddenly turns out you’ll protect your uncle from your pa. Or maybe you’ll end up protecting the ancestral home from damage by throwing out both contestants.
Emotional upheaval for you, and possible rebellion in the clan.
I’d guess that this is part of the reason why strong lateral ties between Assassin-partners are encouraged. If one Assassin’s ties to their primary man’chi starts to weaken in respect to an external tie, the added pull of his partner’s direction toward the primary man’chi will help to ensure the external tie doesn’t win out.
Hanneke: much of what you say is relevant to human ‘friendships’ and would imply that atevi do in fact have ‘friends’ and form friendships…
Atevi clearly form associations, which are not vertical man’chi relationships. There are clear lateral bonds between assassin-partners who share the same upward man’chi.
There have been signs of family life, for instance in the tourist grandparents at Malguri talking about their grandchildren, and small hints about Tano’s family, like his father who is proud of him: there is a positive bond there, while there is no doubt about Tano’s main man’chi being through Bren to Tabini.
In family life, a child is contracted to be raised by the family of the father ór the mother, and is expected to have man’chi to the family which raises him/her. This is quite different from the usual human muddle, though the muddle caused when youngsters develop inappropriate man’chi (either of the follow-the-leader kind, like the two Taibeni youngsters (though in their case it wasn’t inappropriate), or of the mutual kind like the two young lovers below) does seem rather similar.
Though there are family ties among Atevi, we haven’t yet got much of an idea how these ties work out in daily life, or in stress-situations: how and with whom do people live, who saves who from a fire?
We’ve heard of a couple of young lovers from households with different man’chi, when Bren on the phone asked if his household could offer them a neutral place to live, where their different man’chi couldn’t cause trouble. His aishid wasn’t against that: gratitude from the young people and their families might lead to some association or better intelligence out of those clans. The young people had clearly formed a strong bond to each other to keep on with their relationship despite their families’ wishes; and in a discussion with his aishid it’s been stated that being attracted like lovers is the usual interpretation of an ‘inappropriate’ mutual man’chi.
All these bonds are not the same as human friendships, in that the atevi may react quite differently to circumstances in which these ties are active. For instance, however tight the bond between them is, the assassin partners are usually focused on their principal’s safety, and on fulfilling his orders. Only when the principal is absent, will the tie between the partners mean they’ll primarily protect each other, and then only as long as this doesn’t conflict with the longterm goals and safety of their principal. For instance, Jago in the first book leaving her partner-and-father wounded under fire to go to Bren, whom they had only recently been assigned to, who was not under fire yet, and was surrounded & protected by Ilisidi’s bodyguards. In a conflict between someone’s principal man’chi and their family, the principal man’chi will win. This is quite different from what a human will usually expect or do.
Same with the person who befriends people on opposite sides in a conflict: a human sees this as mediation or bridge-building and feels a lessening of the threat of conflict. For atevi, this causes possible blurring of lines of man’chi, and that increases the chance of conflict: this is given as a strong contributing factor to the War of the Landing. This makes Bren’s present actions extra-risky: if he can’t reach a mutually-profitable association that’s acceptable to all he will have added to the destabilization of the Western Association.
So yes, I think atevi have mutual ties of something like affection, that aren’t all *directly* part of the vertical man’chi structure.
These associations may have some (possibly indirect) influence on the strong central man’chi. This is sort of implicit (for me) in the way people themselves can be surprised by their own man’chi when it falls into flux: either a strong leader present at a pivotal moment can wrench their man’chi in a new direction (see the Taibeni youngsters), or (previously weak) not consciously recognised ties suddenly outweigh an old used-to-be-strong man’chi.
But no, I don’t think you can directly equate these associations to human friendships. The way the people who feel these ties feel them inside, and react to them, can be quite different.
Right after posting this I remembered the discussion between Bren and his aishid about ghosts. They said it was impossible to have man’chi to a dead person, unless one believed in ghosts, and some Atevi did, but not all. Bren saw in this an explanation for incomprehensible scenes in the machimi in which old bones are desecrated or thrown in a river.
This seems to mean that man’chi needs a physical focus; and also that ghosts are supposed to be tied to physical remains like the bones, and (maybe) can be exorcised by getting rid of the bones.
This means that people couldn’t feel man’chi toward an abstract idea, like ‘it’s important for Atevi to go to space’. They can feel man’chi toward buildings and probably places, especially if there is a weight of history or personal relevance, like Malguri and the Atageini estate. They can probably feel man’chi, or some important emotional tie, toward objects, like the historical Atageini lilies or the Malguri furnishings.
They can feel man’chi to people, appropriate or inappropriate, for lots of different reasons.
But they cannot feel man’chi to an abstract idea (Atevi in space), unless perhaps it’s symbolized in a physical location, object or person, like the space shuttle or the plant in which it is being built or the director of the plant.
This is very different from humans, who can get *very* fired-up by an idea or ideology. In fact, just now I can’t think of a war in which talk of an idea/ideal hasn’t been used to fire up the enthousiasm of the populace, whether religious (Crusades, jihad, witchhunts), political (Communism, Lebensraum, democracy vs. dictatorship), or something else. And in positive endeavors the same holds true: the Enlightenment, Mother Theresa’s aid, people striving for human rights, and so on and so forth.
This feels like a crucial difference, but I haven’t worked out what it means to the interaction between atevi and humans.
There has been quite a lot of talk about the (sometimes subtle) differences between the kinds of personal attachments humans and atevi feel: man’chi and the loyalty and friendship a good human can offer a good leader are close but not identical. The friendship Bren has for his aishid is quite different from what an atevi in the same position (like Tabini) would feel, though the atevi leader does have feelings for his aishid, as we see developing in Cajeiri (responsibility, for one).
There hasn’t been that much talk about how strongly other incomprehensible-to-Atevi ideas might motivate humans to behave ‘crazily’. There’s been talk about self-interest motivating the people around Hanks; that they wanted to increase their political and economic influence; but the power of the motivating idea to create a following has not been highlighted.
Self-interest is recognizable as a motivating factor to both people, but abstract ideas as a strong motivator might seem very strange to Atevi.
And, Bren has been trying to create enthousiasm among atevi for the idea of atevi going to space, having influence on the spacestation etc.. He’s got Tabini enthousiastic, who sees his influence in a new sphere grow, and knows if he won’t take the lead he’ll lose influence to the humans. Since their return from space Bren seems to have grasped how this doesn’t always translate to the ordinary Atevi, because it’s such an abstract idea; unless they see a personal link and can see how it impacts their own circumstances. Like Banichi not knowing about the earth going round the sun, and stars being faraway suns, ’till there was a chance of having to go there and protect Bren from unknown strangers.
I’m going to have to think about what this means for the Atevi, and for how Bren can best approach them, if enthousiasm for an idea is possible when man’chi (and commitment?) to an idea is not.
Just popping in to say I pre-ordered the new book last night! Barnes & Noble has a Nook version. Although I’ll probably also get the hard cover later. Yay! Can’t wait!
🙂 Thank you!
You’re welcome! Thank YOU! 🙂 (for providing me so much absorbing reading enjoyment.)
I guess we don’t really know enough about atevi ‘friendships’ or ‘affections’ to make a proper judgement about how they work – this is, after all, something that Bren still hasn’t managed to figure out after living with atevi for so long. The atevi are very private with regard to this aspect of their lives, so that even Bren only manages to catch a glimpse of it here and there.
What we do know is that man’chi is an additional emotion that is not present in humans, which impacts all aspects of atevi personal and public life, including any feelings akin to friendship in humans.
That there is still mystery with regard to the atevi after 13 books just makes the sequence all the more interesting.
empathy. do Atevi have it? or is it solely a human characteristic?
see this great animated explanation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g&NR=1
Far be it from me to disagree with the Author, for Pete’s sake (that’d be pretty arrogant, hey?), but I don’t see Bren’s actions in Betrayer as betrayal at all, I see him working for the greater good of the atevi as a people. It seems to me that this fits well with members of his association addressing him as aiji-ma.
It has been well established that aijiin have this pattern of going off on their own and doing things independently of the rest of the herd–they have no man’chi upward at all, they act on their own (whether that behavior benefits another assocation or not). Whether Bren intends it this way or not, I could see his behavior resonating that way to his association.
.
I could even argue that Tabini expected, or at least hoped, for this behavior–as a human, Bren is capable of actions that a sane ateva could not even consider. Sorta like Duncan in Faded Sun–Melein recognizes that once-human Duncan can intercede for The people in a way that a mri could not.
Well, that’s how I see it, anyway!
What I got from the book was that Bren himself felt as though he might be betraying Tabini, rather than his actions being seen as such by Tabini…
Lol—it’s all in point-of-view!
Indeed! Bren was clearly worried that Tabini would see it as betrayal, but felt that he had no choice but to act as he did.
well, at last, I read Betrayer … WOW … feeling quite bruised myself – what a ride! of course I read it much too fast, and will just have to read it again to take it in properly …
big thank you, CJ …. 😀
Hanneke said: “But they cannot feel man’chi to an abstract idea (Atevi in space), unless perhaps it’s symbolized in a physical location, object or person, like the space shuttle or the plant in which it is being built or the director of the plant.”
Or, how about a river-polished stone, sitting in a bowl? The country-mode decoration that sparked a fashion trend on the mainland, after it was placed in the station? That gesture could be very key, in the future.
Ah, bliss! I am buying and re-reading the Foreigner series from the getgo. What a delicious treat! (I’d previously read the hardcovers as they popped up in the library). It was time to toss some less-rewarding, bookshelf-hogging works (*cough* Robert Jordan *cough*) and make more room on my “treasures worth keeping” shelf.
In Re: to the discussion above about the title “Betrayer”: Oh ingenious woman! There was a point in Inheritor when I realized that not only did the title refer to the Atevi right to their own space, but Jase’s place as as one of Taylor’s children AND Bren’s place as the inheritor of all the work of the paidhiin before him. What a delight to have something so subtle and delicious to delight the mind, like the perfect wine after a scrumptious feast!
AND DANGEROUS! At the risk of tmi, I was deep in thought (while in the shower) about the perfection of Tabini’s decision to send Bren to Ilisidi’s in the first book: if Bren’s “man’chi” was found to be true, Tabini would know to rely on Bren’s opinion about the Ship in orbit. If Ilisidi found Bren to be false, however, Tabini would also know, and be able to act, all this while it also challenged Ilisidi to recalculate in the boldest way possible, because Tabini is perhaps the only Ateva on the planet as bold as his grandmother.
…and thusly deep in thought, I numbly used shaving cream as my shampoo! ugh!
…later that day, I missed a light turning green as I was driving! How could I explain to the angry, honking (obviously literature-hating) creatures behind me that I had a perfectly good reason for not paying attention??
Alas, the hazards of being a CJ Cherryh devotee! 🙂
I lol’ed so hard I pushed an accidental ‘send’ button! 😉 Welcome in!
lmjsc – I, too am rereading the Foreigner series – and have been for several months. It is amazing how much you pick up on a reread. I can’t think of another book(s) that I have reread with the same enjoyment.
Exactly! The first three chapters of Foreigner, for example. On the first read, you fly through them in order to get to interesting-looking fellow on the front cover. 🙂 Only after getting to the end and starting again did I appreciate these glimpses into history, read each line with a care of an archaeologist at a rare site. (And delighted to read the few, precious pages in the point of view of the Ateva who first approaches the Landing site. It’s the only Atevi POV read in the works until you get to Cajeiri!)
And, of course, even after re-reading, the mystery of the point-error remains just that, a mystery. Was it bad numbers? Or did I miss something? Opinions?
Just a general comment, but some of us may be seeing the Atevi with too much of a human eye – the mistake Mospheirans made, which caused the War of the Landing.
Atevi have a basic instinct(?) called man’chi, which cannot change. It’s the need to flock to a leader, which humans cannot understand no matter how hard they try.
I would find it a shame if the Atevi were to change. If they didn’t in the hundreds of years after the War of the Landing it is unlikely they will do so now. I want them to remain aliens, a separate species from humans and different from them. And talk of Jago marrying Bren is just silly under the circumstances; she is Atevi, not human, and what would a marriage bring to the relationship that they don’t have already? They are perfectly comfortable with each other as they are. Just because marriage is regarded as a necessity for couples to co-habit in some sections of our society, it should not be imposed on the characters in these books.