I’m giving the page a second section because page 1 was starting to behave oddly.
As always, wait at least 30 days from issue of the book before starting to discuss. And give our overseas friends some extra leeway: the distribution system doesn’t reach everywhere as fast!
Atevi remaining alien is basic to the series. As Jago once said -isn’t this what it’s all about? – or words to that effect. lmjsc – I liked your analogy to an archeology dig. On my rereading the books, more came clear to me and that increased my appreciation for CJ’s writing skill. The alien world development and planning for the series becomes more obvious to the reader. Also, Sapphire – where is anybody talking about Jago marrying Bren?
There’s a brief recent discussion about Jago marrying Bren at the end of the first Foreigner thread (which I actually thought was defunct until a post came through from there on my email system).
I think one can reread the sequence many times over and keep finding new things in it – it’s so rich in descriptive matter and insights. Sometimes a particular paragraph can be so amazing that I read it several times over before continuing with the particular book I’m reading. I wouldn’t do this on the first read of a book, when I’m just trying to see how the entire storyline resolves (and in fact impatiently sneaking a look at future pages before I finish reading for the day).
The whole thing is just so massively clever, rich and intelligently written. I simply don’t know how anyone can write like this – it’s one thing writing good novels involving human relationships (as my sister-in-law does), but quite another writing good science fiction that incorporates brilliant characters as well as the sense of wonder that every SF book should have. It is truly wonderful work.
I wish there was a new book in the sequence published every month (impossible, I know, and CJ’s writing is actually fast considering the types of book she writes.)
Sapphire – I am now rereading Deceiver for the third time. I know what you mean about finding new things on a reread – maybe a slower read. It will be interesting to see how CJ handles Cajeiri’s new guild both in terms of Cajeiri’s management of them and how Banichi, Jago, Algini, and Tano “bring them along”. I think CJ Cherryh does write brilliant SciFi with the Foreigner series. I hope it never stops!
This brings up a thought about atevi marriage in general. It’s considered a contract, and is generally for the purpose of bringing a child into the world with the desired combination of clan lineages. Often dissolved after the child is born, sometimes lasts longer, rarely a lifetime commitment as is the human ideal (but often not the human reality). The thought is that do atevi only have sex if there is serious attraction (which is man’chi or man’chi-related)? However, we have had evidence of “young fools in love”, who bring together a man’chi-clan connection “from hell”. Is it the case then, that any ateva that much “in love” would establish a contract before having children, or do “out of wedlock” births occur, resulting from “one-candle” nights? Are such man’chi-outcast (through no fault of their own) children given to Guilds? Is this maybe, how man’chi-neutral Guild Assassins are available for lords who otherwise might not have sufficient following?
I don’t think we know enough about Atevi reproduction to discuss that. With humans sex serves both as reproduction system, relationship glue, affection, stress reliever and a whole bunch of other stuff. While we can safely say, thanks to Jago and Bren that Atevi probably know something similar to strengthen/confirm man’chi, it isn’t said it is tied in with the reproductive system like it is with humans.
At the other hand, the whole fools in love things makes everything difficult, because it seems it can cause a severe shift in man’chi, which means that feeling in lust/attracted to someone isn’t necessarily man’chi based. Since reproduction is a very strong motifier, it seems logical that this would be at the base of something that can override man’chi this much.
Are Guilds in general the profession of choice for asi-man’chi atevi?
Such children are sort of ‘up for grabs’ by clans needing them, and the protective Guilds are one very frequent choice—but the machimi plays get a lot of mileage out of such people later in life discovering something about their birth or antecedents or the circumstances in which they moved into the clan that makes a critical difference.
I have wondered about the relationship between Tabini and Damiri. It’s noted in one of the books–Foreigner? that they are a rather publicly fond pair, and that her Atigeini relatives initially were not in favor of the association, in that Tabini’s clan and her clan are rivals for the ajinate. Though Damiri has given Tabini an heir, she does not return to her clan, their marriage does not dissolve and another child is on the way. And she goes with Tabini into exile during the Tabini’s overthrow. The political advantages of their alliance are clear, but they appear to be devoted to one another as individuals–in whatever way atevi are attracted. CJ, is their attachment unusual? One gets the feeling that Ilisidi felt no such attachment to Tabini’s grandfather.
Their attachment is rarer among the powerful than among the general population, since power is a less stable commodity than, say, a pottery shop. Ilisidi is popularly believed to have done in Tabini’s grandfather and possibly her own son. As an Easterner, she is reputed to do a lot of things that are on the edge of the Padi Valley rule book. None of Damiri’s relatives were in favor of the marriage at first; but they have had a change of mind, now that there is an heir who shares the Ajuri and Atageini bloodlines.
And once they have the second, they *must* have a third…
Xheralt – why “must” they have a third? Although it would be interesting if there were a little sister.
Two is an unstable, unlucky, uncomfortable numbering (although I suppose you could always assassinate one!).
I don’t think a third child is inevitable. Tabini would think long and hard before adding the extra political repercussions of a third claimant to the aijiinate, likely fostered with a third set of atevi. Though if the differences between Cajeiri and his future sibling look like becoming too politically divisive, it might be a (traditional?) option.
The instability in twice-two might also be ameliorated by pulling Ilisidi more closely into the family-group; or maybe Bren. Or by letting Cajeiri sort of ‘opt out’ of their daily ‘being-a-family’ and be seen to be more closely linked with Ilisidi and Bren, as is already the case in practise, in a stable three-and-three grouping. That would set up the younger sibling to be a very strong political rival to Cajeiri’s future aijiinate, who could be much more to the taste of the central atevi associations and the old Padi valley associations. I don’t think Tabini would want to plant the seeds fo a future split in the Aishiditat, or potential civil war in that way.
Atevi also seem to go in for some ‘creative accounting’ around stable couples. The duos in Bren’s aishid are not unstable, because even when Bren isn’t present, as their principal he is still counted. Tabini and Damiri are not unstable as a couple without Cajeiri: they either count as one plus one (each a power in his/her own right), or the numbers are ameliorated by the number of aishi/attendants.
The group of four might also be split into 1 leader and 3 nearest family followers (though that implies some distance between the leader and the followers), or 1 leader + 2 children who look to him (counts as a threesome, same as Bren + Jago and Banichi) + 1 slightly subordinate & slightly separate leader (who has no part of their man’chi, or at least is not supposed to, considering the rules about contracts for children which state beforehand in which clan’s man’chi the child will be raised).
Furthermore, considering the tradition of fostering an aijii’s child out, the two children won’t often be together in a small family unit, with or without their parents.
I’m nearly done with Betrayer (likely to finish it tonight, although the calendar just ticked over a minute ago).
A couple observations:
1) You have a lot of atevi playing chess… but I’m surprised poker isn’t mentioned. Their numeracy would make the odds the merest part of the game, and Illisidi would almost undoubtedly be a very dangerous player. Her scheme in Deceiver which led to the events of Betrayer is an “all in” of tremendous guts.
2) Am I misremembering that Cajeiri’s point of view only began with this latest set of three, or did we have his POV in the second trio also? It provides a lot of insight into the ateva way of thinking, and how human speech (ship-speak or mospheii) is no more natural to them than ragi is to humans. However, Cajeiri’s maturation through these three books says to me that he could be not only a powerful aiji, but also a valuable negotiator with the human groups on and off planet.
Thanks for another wonderful book.
Joel
p.s. I saw elsewhere here that another Gene Wars book might work if Closed Circle is successful… any thoughts of another Rider book? That world seems too well-formed to just let it sit there.
Yes, Rider is in that short list of books that got discontinued.
I also enjoy reading from Cajeiri’s pov. It was such a gamble for Tabini, was it not, to send him off at such a young age to be closely associated with humans? As soon as it was decided that Atevi would be master’s of their own space, I suppose the die was cast. One cannot help but feel sorry for the young gentleman, however.
Hi Joelfinkle
Banichi plays poker with another atevi to pass the time ( I think in Deceiver or Conspirator but it could be in one of the earlier ones) and Bren thinks that poker was adopted because atevi like the numbers and the combinations possible throughout a game.
Sorry about not remembering which book but if I find it I’ll post again!
It was Conspirator, and Tano and Algini were playing. Apparently they were so good, watching them play could have been a spectator sport.
Tabini makes calculated gambles. In a way we can pity Cajeiri for his exposure to such “grown up” activities – assassination etc. – but then he is destined for a far different future than most atevi children and is being prepared for that. His pov is enlightening for us human readers -helps us to grasp an alien mind. I wonder what is in store for his human playmates from the ship.
Tabini makes calculated gambles and is driven to prepare Cajeiri for a future far different from that of human or atevi children on his world. We can pity him for a very shortened childhood and his (to my mind anyway) too frequent exposure to adult activities such as assassination. We would have a hard time having that sort of environment for our own children although too many children in the world are exposed to war and other violence. Cajeiri helps us human readers have an insight into atevi psyches. I wonder what -if anything- is in store for his human playmates from the ship?
‘I wonder what -if anything- is in store for his human playmates from the ship?’
Hopefully they will disappear into the woodwork (or metalwork in this case) and we will hear more about the Atevi and Kyo part of the story. 🙂
One thing I absolutely love about the descriptions in these books – apart from the graphic illustrations of the places – is the way clothing and objects are portrayed. I particularly love Tabini and the dowager’s clothing, with the black and red, the glittering red stones, the beautiful embroideries woven into the fabric. Also the clothing of the Assassins’ Guild with the black, the leathers, and the silver glints.
The descriptions of the objects in places such as the Bujavid are equally riveting – the pottery, the floors, the panelling on the walls, even the lighting and the little message cases, etc. It is simply superb attention to detail, which brings the places vividly to life. To my mind, there is little as arresting as Machigi’s description of the tea service painted with dyes from a now-extinct plant that grew on an island overwhelmed by a huge wave, with its hints (for me) of drowned Thera/Minoans.
I visited the V&A the other day and saw exquisitely hand-crafted objects that could have come from the Bujavid, but for which the techniques are long lost in our society…
A couple of questions:
1. Would an aiji like Tabini ever retire voluntarily and let his heir take up his position, or would an heir only inherit the title after the aiji’s assassination or death from other causes?
2. In Deliverer, the device that was dropped down from the heavens into the orchard in the East moved about, taking some sort of action and causing general mayhem. What was the action it was taking, and was this directed by the station? Was it defending itself and/or Bren because the station could detect what was going on?
I got the impression that the robot in the orchard (wouldn’t that be a great book title?)was being activated by the station as a distraction in an attempt to assist Bren. If Mospheira knew about the trouble, as is signaled by Toby’s presence with Algini and Tano, it’s likely that the station was also in the information loop. Bren was carrying a pocket com and could probably be tracked by that. Tano and Algini certainly brought the latest electronics down from the station.
This scene is one of my favorite in the books–horrifying and comical at the same time. If the station was aware of the search for the heir or of a firefight, a strange machine stomping around would be sure to distract, if no outright terrify, atevi conservatives.
Yes, that scene was really quite comical. I also figured that the ‘robot’ had been activated by the station – but perhaps because the station had been able to observe what was going on, rather than it having anything to do with the Mospheirans? Perhaps it was Jase attempting to help out from aloft? That scenario has never been explained by CJ (but given that she has nearly half the typescript for the next Foreigner novel left to write for pub. in early March, I wouldn’t expect her to currently have much time to respond to queries here!).
I’m also not sure why the machines I read as being essentially relevant to locating individuals with certain linked devices are able to stomp around and create general mayhem…
‘A Robot in the Orchard’ would indeed be a great book title. 🙂
I thought Jase said they’d put them down in an effort to help Tabini.
Psst, by my count, the one for March is ‘in the can’ and being edited, while the one she’s still writing is the NEXT one out after March!
Is it March YET???? sigh!
Yes. That’s right.
Also, Jase and Bren have a conversation about the robot in the orchard and Jase sent them down to try to help the Tabini situation, as I said above. Bren was upset with him about it, kind of.
Weeble: yes, I was well aware that the devices had been sent down from the station. However, that doesn’t explain exactly what the machines are, which I was interested to know. From what was said I read it that they were connected to the locators in Algini and Tano’s possession, as well as, later, Banichi, Jago and Bren’s, rather than being ‘robots’ capable of stomping about…
That last remark about the device should have been addressed to sleo, not weeble, by the way.
Sorry weeble, and thanks again for the info about the publication of the next book!
Really? That’s fantastic news. I thought CJ was cutting it a bit fine for a book that is to be published in March!
Can’t wait. Thanks very much for the info.
I thought the people here might like to see the original sketch artwork for Deliverer that I bought from Donato Giancola’s website:
http://www.donatoart.com/prints/drawings/deliverer.jpg
It was only $100 so I couldn’t pass it up!
I think I prefer it to the actual jacket!
NB For the upcoming book, I do hope DAW make the cover in a colour, e.g. that lovely pale turquoise to match the title lettering, with perhaps a darker blue spine, and also with coloured endpapers (possibly darker blue to match the spine). They did this in the first books in the sequence, and it is very effective. The hardbacks are quite costly and collectable, so it’s a real draw to have good production for the jackets and covers, rather than just plain black for the covers and white for the ends.
Ha! The cover for Intruder has appeared on Amazon UK, and presumably on the US site, though I haven’t checked. It looks very fine, with some really attractive turquoise type.
(I still think Machigi looks a little too brutish – perhaps?)
I only wish the book could be published NOW (and I am shouting rather than italicizing here). 😉
P.S. This is definitely one I’m going to get in hardback as well as paperback. 🙂
I noticed yesterday that the art was up. I’m very intrigued by the monkey — presumably an Atevi-world critter rather than Earth-descended.
Thank you Summerstay for sharing the sketch. Very nice.